FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

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_Gadianton
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _Gadianton »

Robinson wrote:It is dishonest to pass off the religion of the scholars as the Church of Jesus Christ


From the "korihor's press" essay, I thought this line summed up Internet Mormonism pretty well. But this is exactly what Louis Midgley demands, since to have any doctrinal commentary on the Book of Mormon requires vast scholarly knowledge.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Gadianton wrote:
Robinson wrote:It is dishonest to pass off the religion of the scholars as the Church of Jesus Christ


From the "korihor's press" essay, I thought this line summed up Internet Mormonism pretty well. But this is exactly what Louis Midgley demands, since to have any doctrinal commentary on the Book of Mormon requires vast scholarly knowledge.



cfr.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Mister Scratch
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _Mister Scratch »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:

I believe it was D. Michael Quinn who once said, “…correlation…is…[great]…”.

But seriously, nice wresting of my comments. I was very specific in what type of "merit" a "monolithic" concept held. Let's try including the whole quote next time. I noticed you also didn't provide a link. Well, I took the extra 20 seconds to dig up my full remarks. I add them below, and again ask you not to misrepresent my position so blatantly in the future.

It would seem that the FARMS monolith concept you wish to portray has some merit. For example, it has a strong bias toward presenting the Book of Mormon as an actual ancient record. There is no attempt to hide this fact, in fact, it is trumpeted. Still, there are rather significant disagreements over what the particular evidence means, as shown by various reviews which do not agree on significant points like method of translation, the plausibility of certain old and new world influences on the Book of Mormon, etc.


http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 69#p197469


Huh? *I* was also "quite specific" in what I have been referring to as a "monolith concept." Here, as you can see from your own words (i.e., "It would seem that the FARMS monolith concept you wish to portray has some merit") it would seem that you were agreeing with me, and with the "concept [I] wish to portray." Is that no longer the case, LoaP, or were you deliberately trying to twist, manipulate, and misrepresent my meaning?
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Mister Scratch wrote:Huh? *I* was also "quite specific" in what I have been referring to as a "monolith concept." Here, as you can see from your own words (i.e., "It would seem that the FARMS monolith concept you wish to portray has some merit") it would seem that you were agreeing with me, and with the "concept [I] wish to portray." Is that no longer the case, LoaP, or were you deliberately trying to twist, manipulate, and misrepresent my meaning?



I'll let my comments stand just as they are. People can decide for themselves what I meant and what I didn't mean, as you have done, and though I have countered that you misrepresented me, you refuse to concede my own opinion to me. Alrighty, then.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Mister Scratch
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _Mister Scratch »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Huh? *I* was also "quite specific" in what I have been referring to as a "monolith concept." Here, as you can see from your own words (i.e., "It would seem that the FARMS monolith concept you wish to portray has some merit") it would seem that you were agreeing with me, and with the "concept [I] wish to portray." Is that no longer the case, LoaP, or were you deliberately trying to twist, manipulate, and misrepresent my meaning?



I'll let my comments stand just as they are. People can decide for themselves what I meant and what I didn't mean, as you have done, and though I have countered that you misrepresented me, you refuse to concede my own opinion to me. Alrighty, then.


Yes, your rhetorical gambit backfired on you. "Alright, then," indeed. You see, LoaP, you Mopologists often try to smear your opponents by making claims about "misrepresentation." I have seen Midgley, DCP, and countless others apply this sort of thing to Tal Bachman, Mike Quinn, Bob McCue, and Lord knows how many other critics of the Church. You guys really ought not to do that unless you never ever---by any measure whatsoever---"misrepresent" the views of others yourselves.

What's interesting here, though, is that now you are trying to say that it's only your "opinion" that you were misrepresented. It's sort of like the "speaking as a man"/"speaking as a prophet" distinction.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

I'm sorry Scratch, but I have no idea what you are on about. I stand by the full quote. That is all.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Ray A

Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote:It's been nearly twenty years. I can't recover my thought processes from that time with any great precision or certainty. It was probably an oversight to allow that implication to stand, just as it may have been an oversight on Professor Robinson's part to make it in the first place.


This all happened a long time ago. In one sense it's not entirely fair to raise subjects that were discussed in 1992, and people's opinions do change over time. Understanding and accepting a person's current perspective (which may have changed as a result re-evaluation, and even challenges to previous thinking) is important to being fair to them. That's what we need to evaluate and distinguish. Shades is one person who unabashedly, even proudly, presents his missionary journals for the world to perv on. I think few of us would be that bold (I burned my missionary journals), but it merely indicates how much Shades has changed, and can look back with amusement, even shock, at how his thinking was as a young missionary.

To move on, from the editorial:

While others are certainly free to dispute Stephen Robinson's specific attempt to apply the Book of Mormon's account of Korihor to contemporary thinking, I do not see that believing Latter-day Saints can disallow his attempt in principle. But it is striking that, although some at Signature have bristled at the "Korihor" label, so far as I am aware nobody has denied Professor Robinson's substantive grounds for assigning it. It is rather as if someone were to label a man a "Benedict Arnold"—and to allege specific reasons for doing so—only to have the accused or his defenders respond merely that it isn't nice to call people "Benedict Arnolds," and that one should be more polite. This is an important point. In the New Jersey federal case alluded to above, the court held that a critic's privilege to speak his or her mind remains intact if the facts are truly stated, and if the critic's comments are fair and an honest expression of his or her opinion. In ruling against the author and publisher of Casino Gambling for the Winner, Judge Sarokin wrote that "Plaintiffs have not challenged or refuted the accuracy of any of the facts asserted by defendants, and a reasonable reader is given sufficient information from which to make up his or her own mind on the opinion stated."35
Was Professor Robinson's language strong? Indisputably. "You have irresponsibly supported an attempt to besmirch the professional reputation of other scholars," one enraged letter-writer to the Salt Lake Tribune informed me.36 Was Professor Robinson's article a violation of the law, or legally actionable? I very much doubt it. (Bill Russell, one of the contributors to Vogel's book and a lawyer himself, would later admit in a published letter that he saw "no reason for George [Smith] to sue FARMS")37 I would rather hope that, in the words of the 1990 Supreme Court decision, public discussion and disputation in Mormondom "will not suffer for lack of imaginative expression or the rhetorical hyperbole which has traditionally added much to the discourse of our Nation" and which, that court expressly declared, has received "full constitutional protection."38

Calling Names, or Naming Names?

No serious Christian, however, would want to guide his or her personal life solely on the basis of the law's minimal requirements. There is a higher standard. Something may be legal, yes, and yet unethical, unwise, or unkind. So is there any place for invective in civilized public life? Is there any place for sharp language in the intellectual life of the Latter-day Saints? What should be its limits? What is "name-calling"?

In a certain sense, the answer to the first question is clear. Whatever one may think of its desirability, sharp invective has historically played an important role in public life. One has only to thumb through Leon Harris's wonderful survey of The Fine Art of Political Wit to realize how pervasive and even enlivening has been the use of name-calling and biting humor at the most exalted levels of Anglo-American political discourse.39 But it goes beyond politics. Sharp epithets are hardly foreign to the groves of academe. Scholars, too, can occasionally grow very exercised and intense, even in the highest and most respectable academic circles. They can be rough, sometimes nasty. I offer two recent examples, selected, not from the writings of redneck obscurantists, but from the flagship journals of the two most prestigious North American organizations dedicated to the academic study of religion.


Given DCP's current position, I don't think he'd now agree that "name calling" is, after all, such a good idea (especially here on MDB). He's stated in the past, on FAIR, that he doesn't like the the use of the word "apologist", especially when it is meant to demean true believers. But this is exactly what "Korihor" was, a demeaning term. Having said that, I don't think there's a single person who'd victoriously survive scrutiny of everything they've said or believed in the past. The question is whether we've learned from the past.

One thing that hasn't changed is DCP's agressive approach to criticism of the Church, nor his desire to have critics "for lunch". That will only change when DCP modifies his strong literal beliefs (which I don't think will happen), and until then "ecumenism", of any type, will have no part of his vocabulary. This is not only true of DCP, however, but of every true believer. Many true believers, however, like Mike Ash for example, are not as agressive in their rebuttals to critics, so I put this down to individual nature, and not necessarily "all apologetics". The other point that needs attention, is that DCP's "Reflections on Secular Anti-Mormonism" does raise good points about how aggressive critics of the Church and Mormons, can be. It is largely this to which he responds, and understandably so. You really can't blame him for making such responses, and they are not even "in kind" responses, but an attempt to expose folly through wit and satire, and in my opinion, in that particular speech it was very effective. I do sympathise with those Mormons who are the object of open and continuing ridicule by ex-Mormons. We have to try to see this from "both sides".

Has it all been a smear campaign? Not all. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Signature set out to correct what, in my opinion, was a serious deficiency in Mormon historiography. Once I discovered Signature, I don't think I ever bought another book from Deseret. Here is where I think FARMS went wrong, in too overtly ridiculing their opponents, and Professor Robinson's essay was a ringleader in how apologetics should not be done. But observers of the Review will realise that Professor Robinson's essay was not the first in this genre. When I read Tom Nibley's (Hugh Nibley's son) reply to the Tanners, I could barely distinguish the dripping sarcasm from actual criticism (and I was interested in the latter, at the time). Some excerpts from Nibley's essay:

Unfortunately for our sagacious swamis, they seem to have remembered only the first part when they bring up Alma and the six-hundred-years-from-Lehi-till-the-birth-of-Christ prophecy.


Now if our super sleuths had taken the time to do a little elementary arithmetic they might have been canny enough to see that the translation was moving slower, not faster, at this time.


Robert also tells me the Tanners are not ad hominem in their approach. Well, just for fun, let's look at some of the evidence. We could, for example, take note of their habit of calling Mormon scholars "apologists" (Does this word perhaps conjure up images of sniveling cravens desperately scrambling to cover up one heinous indiscretion after another, all the while whining "I'm sorry, I'm sorry"? No, of course not.
Note: This was after Robinson's "Korihor's press" remark.

But, then, what does Webster know? Language is determined by usage, and the Tanners, not unlike Humpty Dumpty, use the language just as they please.


Now let's check out some of the other methods our meritorious mentors subscribe to.


Are there really people on this earth so gullible or so desperate to prove the Mormons wrong that they buy into this foolishness?


But I can't let this subject go without one other observation: our perspicacious pedagogues point out that,


If you want to please the Tanners, aim for the airy aeries of arcane academia where your production can be pedantically pondered by professorial pedagogues such as, well—the Tanners!!!


The Tanners, exhibiting their typical meticulous scholarship, ignore these and any other papers or studies on the subject (the Larsen and Rencher article lists fifteen other works, most by non-Mormons, in a footnote.


But, armed with an impressively powerful nescience of the field, they strap on helmet and buckler and sally forth.


And what is our friend Oliver doing during these long excursions into duplicity? Practicing cat's cradle maybe, or whittling decoys in anticipation of duck season?


they thereby show that their grasp of the rubrics of logic is tenuous at best.


This isn't scholarship. It looks more like entertainment, and that's how I viewed it at the time, because his sarcasm all but obliterated his points. It is little wonder Eugene England objected, and this is an example of the "tone" that Signature was concerned about. I don't believe Signature set out to attack, but to provide information that simply wasn't coming from Mormon scholars and historians. That move, however, was perceived by people like Professor Robinson, as an "attack".

I haven't read recent most editions of the Review, and although I learned a lot from the Review in the 1990s, I consider it to be more apologetics than serious scholarship, but that's not to say it didn't play an important role in my weighing very important matters when I was going through my own "cruciable". After the mid-late 1990s, when I no longer felt the need for "apologetic buffering", or "faith boosting" in a literalism I had abandoned, I also abandoned reading the Review, because I viewed it as largely apologetic. (I did continue to read the Review into the late '90s though, but mainly from a more critical perspective, and it was still entertaining up to that point, and informative in many ways, of issues I would not have learned about except through the Review.)
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Ray A wrote:Given DCP's current position, I don't think he'd now agree that "name calling" is, after all, such a good idea (especially here on MDB).

I've never argued that "name calling" is a good idea.

I have, though, argued that satire and sharp polemic can be a good thing. And I stand by that.

Ray A wrote:until then "ecumenism", of any type, will have no part of his vocabulary.

Although I wouldn't call it "ecumenism," I have, in fact, devoted more hours than I can count to civil and even friendly interfaith dialogue.

Ray A wrote:I don't believe Signature set out to attack, but to provide information that simply wasn't coming from Mormon scholars and historians.

We disagree. Although Signature has not invariably been on the attack, and has published some very good things, it has often been on the attack -- and was so, quite consciously, virtually from its beginnings.

Ray A wrote:I haven't read recent most editions of the Review, and although I learned a lot from the Review in the 1990s, I consider it to be more apologetics than serious scholarship

In my judgment, the Review has published some very fine scholarly essays -- and this has been more apparent over the past 5-10 years than ever before.

And, for the record, I don't think that scholarship and apologetics are mutually exclusive categories.
_Ray A

Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I've never argued that "name calling" is a good idea.


Maybe not "a good idea", but from my reading of the editorial you felt it at least had a "place" in free speech, and was acceptable. And you also noted this (more below):

As to the question of whether Christians are permitted the use of sharp epithets, the answer, again, seems clear. For Christ himself often labeled those who opposed him "serpents," a "generation of vipers," "hypocrites," "blind guides" and "whited sepulchres" (Matthew 12:34; 23:23-27, 33). Granted that its use should be infrequent, the question of when such language might be justified is a difficult one. What separates appropriate use from inappropriate? As editor, I judged that the language used by the FARMS reviewers last year—really extraordinarily mild language, when compared with the kind of invective I have been discussing here—was well within bounds.


Presumably you were referring to this:

Signature Books did, after all, publish Paul Toscano's preachy and mean-spirited parodies of Latter-day Saint hymns—in which, among other things, Church leaders are portrayed as insensitive,49 greedy,50 self-aggrandizing,51 and exploiting women in order to attain their unrighteous ambitions.52 The General Authorities, for Toscano, are "guarded by God's own gestapo" (i.e., the personnel of Church security) who, "full of paranoid delusions," "attempt to guarantee/That our modern, living prophets/Don't confront reality."53 Furthermore, Mormons seek political power so that—as Toscano expresses it on their behalf—"in one sweeping motion we'll mandate devotion and teach our oppressors new ways to oppress."54 Professors of Religious Education at Brigham Young University are mocked as "holier than thou . . . as holy as a sacred cow," and are painted as so distracted by their consuming ambition to be General Authorities that they cannot or will not teach.55 Toscano also lectures his readers on what real "Mormon doctrine" is, as opposed to the "party line" espoused by the Brethren and "spoon-fed" to the membership at large.56 Church courts, we are informed, lawlessly expel members "on a baseless rumor or some hearsay facts."57 Ordinary Latter-day Saints, as depicted in this Signature Books publication, arrogantly deny divine grace and trust that their own righteousness will put God in their debt.58 "Praise us to whom all blessings flow," they sing. "Bless us, your favorites, here below. Praise us above the heavenly host. We are the ones you prize the most."59 I find Toscano's lyrics quite remarkably unfunny. But, more importantly, such language strikes me as having overstepped the line between humor and sacrilege.


Point taken in that regard, even though there is some truth in some of the above. And I agree Toscano's parodies were nothing short of offensive. I could never understand why they had to go to that level, and never agreed with it. (Perhaps that's why I never have, and still don't, fit into the "ex-Mormon movement", whatever that is. I occasionally lurk on some "exmo" boards and still feel I would never fit in. I'm interested in criticism and dialogue, something along the lines of "inter-faith" dialogue.)

But perhaps it would have been better, in retrospect, to leave any "subtle retribution" out of the Review itself?

Daniel Peterson wrote:I have, though, argued that satire and sharp polemic can be a good thing. And I stand by that.


Robinson's wasn't polemic, though, it was name-calling. Again, maybe not the best idea, in retrospect. But we're really talking about the past here, one I do think at least you don't wholly subscribe to now. At least that's my impression. In the early '90s the Tanners came under your vitriol, but in the 2000s I think you've even referred to them as "fairly benign" (in comparison to the "new secular anti-Mormons").

Daniel Peterson wrote:Although I wouldn't call it "ecumenism," I have, in fact, devoted more hours than I can count to civil and even friendly interfaith dialogue.


I'm aware of that. But what happened between Signature and FARMS isn't related to "inter-faith dialogue". Ecumenism was perhaps a bad choice of a word on my part. I think the real challenge now is to try to establish dialogue with the "new" "secular anti-Mormons", and the ones you find "more interesting". For example, trying to find reasons why ex-Mormons in particular attack Dan Peterson and the MI so much? And why other apologists equally strong in their convictions remain relatively free from such attacks? For example, Jeff Lindsay? He made at least one attempt to understand Here.

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Ray A wrote:I don't believe Signature set out to attack, but to provide information that simply wasn't coming from Mormon scholars and historians.

We disagree. Although Signature has not invariably been on the attack, and has published some very good things, it has often been on the attack -- and was so, quite consciously, virtually from its beginnings.


I wasn't referring to the episodes from above, but the aim of Signature in general, which was to provide books/information not generally available from LDS sources. I'm not sure that counter-attacking was the best way to reply to Signature.

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Ray A wrote:I haven't read recent most editions of the Review, and although I learned a lot from the Review in the 1990s, I consider it to be more apologetics than serious scholarship

In my judgment, the Review has published some very fine scholarly essays -- and this has been more apparent over the past 5-10 years than ever before.


Maybe so, and I haven't been following it since the late 1990s, though I have selectively read some of it post-2000. But I think you have changed in some respects, especially in regard to people like Dan Vogel, and perhaps, even Signature itself.

Daniel Peterson wrote:And, for the record, I don't think that scholarship and apologetics are mutually exclusive categories.


Nor do I. I think C.S.Lewis is one of the best examples of that I can think of. Other modern day Christian apologists don't even come close. I previously mentioned Phillip Adams, the atheist debunker of religion, as well, in regard to polemics. I don't think we'll ever escape polemics entirely, either way, but Phillip has established a very readable dialogue with Paul Davies. See Here. But, I know, it must be two-way. Without mutual respect, we are unlikely to get very far.

My time is unfortunately up for today, and I'm leaving all the typos and bad phraseology intact.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: FARMS's Smear Campaign Against Signature Books

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Ray A wrote:Robinson's wasn't polemic, though, it was name-calling.

It was polemic.

Ray A wrote:But we're really talking about the past here, one I do think at least you don't wholly subscribe to now. At least that's my impression. In the early '90s the Tanners came under your vitriol, but in the 2000s I think you've even referred to them as "fairly benign" (in comparison to the "new secular anti-Mormons").

I haven't really changed all that much.

I was never as harsh as some want to portray me.

Ray A wrote:For example, trying to find reasons why ex-Mormons in particular attack Dan Peterson and the MI so much? And why other apologists equally strong in their convictions remain relatively free from such attacks?

I have a fairly good idea why it happens.

Ray A wrote:For example, Jeff Lindsay?

Jeff Lindsay is routinely harshly mocked and derided by many ex-Mormons.

Ray A wrote:I wasn't referring to the episodes from above,

Nor was I.

Ray A wrote:but the aim of Signature in general, which was to provide books/information not generally available from LDS sources.

That was one of Signature's aims.

It has always had an agenda.

Daniel Peterson wrote:But I think you have changed in some respects, especially in regard to people like Dan Vogel, and perhaps, even Signature itself.

Dan Vogel and I have always gotten along reasonably well, personally. I've known him for years.
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