White privilege is a myth

[Chap]

I am delighted to hear that people who live in the US really like doing so. Each to his own.

But ... I have lived in two European countries, in one of which I was born, and where, like many others, I was able to enjoy a life of fulfilling and well-rewarded career progression well beyond what my parents could ever have dreamed of.

I have lived in two very different environments steeped in centuries of culture to which I have easy access. And in both places a visit to the emergency room does not involve me in a risk of bankruptcy - because it is free. Oh, and one of them has really great cuisine ... and in neither of them is my likelihood of running into a crazy guy with an assault rifle significant.

No doubt however that if I lived in Guatemala I would be swimming the Rio Grande like a shot. I do not wish to denigrate Americans who love their country. But they have a weird tendency to imagine that everybody else would love to be American. I have visited the states a fair bit, and have many American colleagues. And I don't feel the slightest temptation to change nationalities. Please grant me the same privilege that I willingly grant you.

[Atlanticmike]

Not even close!! Do you even know any Nigerians? I do!! My two oldest kids were delivered by a Nigerian doctor. my kids play with his kids, they swim at their house all the time or at least they did when they were younger. When his mom and dad came to the United States they lived in the back of a hair salon for the first 5 years.

I know another Nigerian family whose father came here first and over a six-year period brought the rest of the family. No college education.

First of all. Their success here in America doesn't have anything to do with an education before they get here. Nigerians are very optimistic, happy and they believe in a strong family bond. They respect their parents, their aunts, their uncles, their nieces, their nephews, anyone who's in their family. Really really really strong family connection and this is key why they are so successful here in America. They are very optimistic and pass that on to their kids. They expect only the best from their kids from the day that they are born. Really no different than a lot of Asian families that come to America. My wife is Filipino and her family is extremely close even with extended family back in the Philippines. The key to success here in America is having a positive attitude and working your butt off and a lot of immigrants from Asia and Africa have already learned that in their native countries. In America today, anyone, and I mean anyone of any color or any background has the ability to live the American dream if they can keep a positive attitude and just work, work and work.

It's a shame that a large percentage of native-born Americans are being taught that America is racist and one if the worst countries in the world. When in reality America and Americans have done more to improve tough situations around the world than any other country. We're generous with our money, our time, we love other people and are willing to travel to help people in need. AGAIN!! that's why people are willing to walk thousands of miles to come here. Swim here and spend years and years saving money so they can travel here legally also. White guilt and this game the progressives are playing will destroy this country. Once freedom is gone it's gone for good.

Atlantic mike, you make some good observations about immigrants. Yes there is opportunity in American. I have even heard there are native born Americans that make good out of the land of opportunity. I certainly wish to see that continue.

Then you add a statement about progressives ending this and freedom is in danger of being lost. I do not know what you are talking about there. ....? Progressives have been shaping America for the past hundred years. Is freedom now gone?

It really comes down to what you believe true freedom is. Me, I think true freedom is dangerous, dirty, scary and comes with a lot of responsibility. Infact I don't think you can have freedom without taking responsibility. And today politicians on both sides are trying to take away all your responsibilities by offering government programs and making sure they are there to help you in anyway possible. Why?? Because if they can step in and take away some of your burdens/responsibilities then they can more than likely count on your VOTE. It really is that simple. If you sit down and talk to someone and ask them what true freedom is, most people have no idea. True freedom scares most people because true freedom come with so much responsibility.
Here's an example. Today, most people have there taxes taken out of their paychecks before they even receive their check. So, most people don't even think twice about it because they never even had an opportunity to put the money in there account. You want to make some huge changes in the American government??? Allow people to receive 100% of the money they earn then have them cut a check to the federal government for taxes. I guarantee people will wake up and start worrying where and how the government is spending their money.
As far as Progressives. To me Progressives are trying way harder than the conservatives to take away your responsibilities and therefore they are willing to take away your freedom. Program after program after program. Agency after agency after agency. I'm sick of it!! I will grant you, Progressives are really smart and are better at playing the long game.

[ceeboo]

But ... I have lived in two European countries, in one of which I was born, and where, like many others, I was able to enjoy a life of fulfilling and well-rewarded career progression well beyond what my parents could ever have dreamed of.

Well, if your well rewarded career progression has vaulted you beyond what your parents could ever have dreamed of, I guess there is no need to discuss this matter any further. Check mate!

(When I first read what you wrote here, I thought I was reading a dating site profile.)

[Atlanticmike]

So Atlanticmike knows two hardworking and optimistic Nigerian families.

So he is entitled to entirely discount as a factor in the overall success of Nigerians income terms compared to other US citizens the fact that the average Nigerian arriving in the US is twice as likely to have a college degree than the average American.

That is completely irrelevant. How do we know that? Because he told us so.

And those two fine Nigerian families don’t negate the existence of privilege regardless, no more so than me producing two poor Nigerian families would prove or negate it.

But Atlanticmike likes those straw man arguments. ; )

Please, for the love of God!! Stop thinking you're privileged because the color of your skin. You're not privileged because you're white!! It's disrespectful to think that way. By thinking that way, you're literally seeing anyone who's not white as a victim. Which means you see them as less than you. Can you not see that??

[huckelberry]

Atlantic mike, you make some good observations about immigrants. Yes there is opportunity in American. I have even heard there are native born Americans that make good out of the land of opportunity. I certainly wish to see that continue.

Then you add a statement about progressives ending this and freedom is in danger of being lost. I do not know what you are talking about there. ....? Progressives have been shaping America for the past hundred years. Is freedom now gone?

It really comes down to what you believe true freedom is. Me, I think true freedom is dangerous, dirty, scary and comes with a lot of responsibility. Infact I don't think you can have freedom without taking responsibility. And today politicians on both sides are trying to take away all your responsibilities by offering government programs and making sure they are there to help you in anyway possible. Why?? Because if they can step in and take away some of your burdens/responsibilities then they can more than likely count on your VOTE. It really is that simple. If you sit down and talk to someone and ask them what true freedom is, most people have no idea. True freedom scares most people because true freedom come with so much responsibility.
Here's an example. Today, most people have there taxes taken out of their paychecks before they even receive their check. So, most people don't even think twice about it because they never even had an opportunity to put the money in there account. You want to make some huge changes in the American government??? Allow people to receive 100% of the money they earn then have them cut a check to the federal government for taxes. I guarantee people will wake up and start worrying where and how the government is spending their money.
As far as Progressives. To me Progressives are trying way harder than the conservatives to take away your responsibilities and therefore they are willing to take away your freedom. Program after program after program. Agency after agency after agency. I'm sick of it!! I will grant you, Progressives are really smart and are better at playing the long game.

Nobody is taking responsisbility away from people. Yes you are correct that freedom and responsibilities includes dangers. In America people can fail, lose jobs due to their mistakes or perhaps other peoples mistakes. People can start business and lose their life savings and resources in a business failure. They may lack important skills perhaps through poor choices perhaps through natural impediments and have all sorts of difficulty with jobs, They can end up living on the street or under a bridge.

Nothing is removing these dangers. Nothing is forcing people to not make bad choices. The consequences of those bad choices follow the chain of cause and effect. Yes our society offers some help for people who have financial disaster. That help is very limited in time and amount. People who receive unemployment compensation will find themselves after some time on the street if they do not up and find a job.

.......
Perhaps I should add that our freedom also includes the dangers of family or marriage disasters. People can get robbed or assaulted. People can get in accidents fires floods. These offer all sorts of suffering. You can even go out into the woods and get lost. You can rest assured that the possibilities for free choice and or suffering are plentiful.

[huckelberry]

Please, for the love of God!! Stop thinking you're privileged because the color of your skin. You're not privileged because you're white!! It's disrespectful to think that way. By thinking that way, you're literally seeing anyone who's not white as a victim. Which means you see them as less than you. Can you not see that??

I do not think it is a good thing to think of anybody under only one aspect. Everyone is a victim of something at some time. Absolutely none of us are ever a victim only.

I have never imagined that seeing someone as victim makes them less than me. I find that a bizarre sort measurement of self worth.

[Chap]

But ... I have lived in two European countries, in one of which I was born, and where, like many others, I was able to enjoy a life of fulfilling and well-rewarded career progression well beyond what my parents could ever have dreamed of.

Well, if your well rewarded career progression has vaulted you beyond what your parents could ever have dreamed of, I guess there is no need to discuss this matter any further. Check mate!

(When I first read what you wrote here, I thought I was reading a dating site profile.)

My comment was, as you no doubt realise, addressed to the stereotype (enthusiastically set out by Atlanticmike) that the US is the only place where those who work hard can enjoy hopes of a brighter future.

Of course, as you also know, the US is not alone in being a place where the 'any poor kid who works hard can end up rich' story is more and more just that, a story. In the US, just as in Europe, it is increasingly the case that the best predictor of a child's future income is the income of its parents. Social mobility is much less of a reasonable expectation than it once was.

And more than that - the best way to become richer is simply to be rich already and to get most of your income from capital. Middle class Americans who built their prosperity on salaries, like middle class Europeans, face the prospect of their children being less well off than they were. The best way to grow your wealth is simply to inherit a lot of it.

[Chap]

[..] Stop thinking you're privileged because the color of your skin. You're not privileged because you're white!! It's disrespectful to think that way. By thinking that way, you're literally seeing anyone who's not white as a victim. Which means you see them as less than you. [...]

Er, no. I am seeing them as a fellow citizen unjustly deprived of the effective exercise of rights that I have in full, and which they ought to enjoy in the same measure that I do. And I'd like to see that changed. What's wrong with that?

Like, men who said that women ought to have the vote were not regarding them as inferior because they were the victims of unjust discrimination (which they certainly were): quite the reverse.

[Edited to correct quote attribution- thanks to Ceeboo for pointing that out]

[ceeboo]

Fixed

[canpakes]

Please, for the love of God!! Stop thinking you're privileged because the color of your skin.

Why would ‘privilege’ be limited solely to skin color? Can I be privileged because I was born to a family of great wealth? Would that afford me more opportunity than if I was born to a poor Black family in Gary, Indiana?

Do you really believe that the success - or not - of every person in your life around you is based solely on merit?

You're not privileged because you're white!!

Why is such a thing not possible, if I am white within a predominantly white population? Please review the list that I posted earlier and tell me what wouldn’t apply to my situation if I’m white, or black.

It's disrespectful to think that way.

To who?

By thinking that way, you're literally seeing anyone who's not white as a victim.

No. Acknowledging ’privilege’ merely acknowledges that there’s a bias within some parts of the social structure. It’s a natural result within any group of people sharing different historical pasts and populations, and can be based on race, or sex, or class. And acknowledging it’s existence does not imply blame, or create an excuse for anything.

Tell me, why would societal biases not develop naturally and be present all around you?

Again, look at the lists that I posted earlier. Instead of just blurting out how those things can’t possibly exist because you want to pretend that’s the case, explain to me why they don’t exist.

Which means you see them as less than you.

No. See my comment above on merit.

As example, do you see all of the folks around you that you imagine are ‘less successful’, as inferior in some way? You’re trying to tell me that their life performance is based solely on their decisions, as opposed to any inequity within life situations - purposefully or naturally occurring. You’re the one who wants to discard things like privilege and pretend that every individual has the exact same opportunity or access to resources.

I suppose that I could ask you why you don’t own the roofing company that you work for. Are you too lazy? Do you have a choice in the matter? Or, why don’t you own 3 roofing companies? Not enough initiative?

Can you not see that??

What I see is someone at the other end of this conversation who doesn’t want to acknowledge a plain reality … for some reason or another that he can’t explain.