The Tiers of Apologetics

[_Doctor Scratch]

I think that the tiered structure is actually built into the MI itself. There's really no sane reason why the Maxwell Institute, of all things, needs to be publishing METI stuff. I mean, why couldn't this have been handled by the Middle Eastern Studies department? Why publish it out of an Institute whose express purpose is to do apologetics? Another point in favor of the tiers is the apologists themselves. Anytime any critic (such as, notably, Joey) points out that apologetics has pretty much zero credibility in the academic world, the apologists will always say, "Ah, well, Prof. Gee has published in the following very respectable journals," etc. We can reply: "Well, we weren't talking about his non-apologetic works," but the apologists usually refuse to recognize any distinction between the two. In fact, in a recent thread, both DCP and Will Schryver both insisted that most of Gee's Egyptology publications are actually a form of implicit Book of Abraham apologetics. So: there is clearly some cross-over, and the apologists intend it to be this way.

[_harmony]

I would offer, as a counter-proposal, on my own authority, that METI clearly isn't tier 1, even if you think it is.

You see how that works? I have just refuted your claim by mere fiat. I trust you will bow to my expressed wisdom in this regard.

cks

What do you think it is, cksalmon?

[_maklelan]

METI is clearly tier 1, even if you think it isn't.

Well, I guess that settles it. It's a good thing you're here to provide make sure our perspectives are kept in line with yours.

[_EAllusion]

Good on you, EA. Then you have no need to defend Gad's simply and obviously silly conflation of METI and LDS apologia.

cks

Well, I like the comparison in this instance. I'm just not sure everyone is getting how straightforward the charge is here. He's saying the motive for doing it as part of an association with organization known for apologetics and having apologetics built right into its mission statement is to bring a sense of respectability/legitimacy to the organization.

[Guest]

I think that the tiered structure is actually built into the MI itself. There's really no sane reason why the Maxwell Institute, of all things, needs to be publishing METI stuff.

How dare those idiots move outside the mission statement you've assigned them!

I mean, why couldn't this have been handled by the Middle Eastern Studies department?

Because no such department exists. The MES/A bachelors degree is a program that operates under International and Area Studies. It's a small interdisciplinary program that culls professors from a number of different departments, such as the departments of Asian and Near Eastern Languages, Humanities, and International and Area Studies. They couldn't possibly contain such a project.

Why publish it out of an Institute whose express purpose is to do apologetics?

That's only a part of their "express purpose." Another part is to "provide critically edited, primary resources (ancient religious texts) to scholars and lay persons around the world." That's actually expressed in their mission statement. Surely you're not going to contend that their "express purpose" is a lie to cover up their clandestine "express purpose," to which you are magically privy.

Another point in favor of the tiers is the apologists themselves. Anytime any critic (such as, notably, Joey) points out that apologetics has pretty much zero credibility in the academic world, the apologists will always say, "Ah, well, Prof. Gee has published in the following very respectable journals," etc. We can reply: "Well, we weren't talking about his non-apologetic works," but the apologists usually refuse to recognize any distinction between the two.

I am unaware of any apologists who don't recognize the distinction, but if they do exist, they would be mistaken.

In fact, in a recent thread, both DCP and Will Schryver both insisted that most of Gee's Egyptology publications are actually a form of implicit Book of Abraham apologetics. So: there is clearly some cross-over, and the apologists intend it to be this way.

Scholars (religious and otherwise) publish arguments that, implicitly or explicitly, support their general worldviews. Until you can show me a trend among scholars to publish conclusions that directly conflict with their general outlooks on the world I'm afraid I cannot agree with the assertion that Latter-day Saint scholarship is inferior for not doing so.

[_Gadianton]

Well, CKS, to be fair here, I'd wager that you don't think that God changes just because people don't believe in him or hold contradicting beliefs about him. So I don't think I'm being abnormally rude or anything. I personally hold that tier 1 apologetics exists independent of your belief to the contrary, and that's all I was saying.

I did not say that I think you're not allowed to disagree or think my tiers are silly, knock yourself out my friend. Wouldn't want to stop you if I could.

[_The Nehor]

I did not say that I think you're not allowed to disagree or think my tiers are silly, knock yourself out my friend. Wouldn't want to stop you if I could.

Reading your tier system convinced me that it is the product of the paranoid ramblings of a syphilitic brain.

[_EAllusion]

I'm curious how at a minimum Cks doesn't see DCP's habit of announcing these projects on Mormondiscussions.com as a sort of announcement that they are legitimate scholarly work to imply respectability to their apologetics. It screams it precisely in the same way the sandbagging example screamed proselytizing.

[_Gadianton]

I did not say that I think you're not allowed to disagree or think my tiers are silly, knock yourself out my friend. Wouldn't want to stop you if I could.

Reading your tier system convinced me that it is the product of the paranoid ramblings of a syphilitic brain.

That wasn't a very gentlemanly thing to say Nehor.

What was it though about my tier system though that convinced you I have a syphilitic brain infection?

[_The Nehor]

That wasn't a very gentlemanly thing to say Nehor.

I forgot my pipe so I'm unable to say gentlemanly things.

What was it though about my tier system though that convinced you I have a syphilitic brain infection?

An outsider with a very light understanding of a diverse field filled with vast differences in author, intent, and subject matter is attempting to classify the system into three tiers. The intent of the classification system is to show how the whole apparatus is being used to dupe others.

As for syphilis, I just checked the Danite secret files archived in the vaults of the SCMC.