A Poster's Weak Faith Damaged by another Poster?

[_Buffalo]

Well, geez. Surely Pahoran can't be held up as a good example of an LDS member. He can't even be held up as a good example of an LDS apologist. It's certainly not Pahoran's fault Joseph dropped his prophetic mantle the instant he dropped his pants for Fanny. I mean, really.

I think LDS Toronto's avatar depicting a known homosexual predator shows exactly where his disagreement with the Church lies. He was gone long before he began accepting unsubstantiated rumors regarding Fanny Alger.

So Harvey Milk was a sexual predator for having sex with teenagers?

So what does that make this guy?

[_Themis]

This is such crap. I just can't take it. Why bring his name into it at all unless you have some hidden purpose for doing so? Pahoran stengthed your resolve because of his posting style? Please enough of placing blame on someone else's head. You would have left maybe one week later because by the time you posted here on this board you were already out of the LDS church. And if you were looking for perfection in LDS posters well you certainly would not find it here or anywhere else.

I see you didn't actually read what he said and are now embarassesing yourself. I won't elaborate, but would suggest you try harder to read carefully what other post in order to understand what they are really trying to say.

So by your claim because pahoran pushed you out of the church he has commited murder? Come on...lets get real. Please stop judging people according to what you think god would or would not approve of.

Again, readin somprehension is important here. He is saying pahoran is a very mean poster, and I agree, and that he would do well to change , because as he quoted Alma, was eqating murder with pushing or leading people out of the church.

You do realize how often Pahoran has been insulted by the critics on this board and these insults have been occuring long before you arrived on the scene. Do you hold critics accountable? No.

You will find that bad behavior tends to get more bad behavior. How do you know that he doesn't think some critics are accountable for their bad behavior?

[_Jason Bourne]

As you know, LDS Toronto is claiming he's leaving the Church because another poster has hurt his feelings, an anonymous poster here and on that other board.

Anybody else have a similar experience?

Hmmm I think Mr. Bot you are bearing false witness. You might want to think about that honesty question on the TR and look in the mirror next time you accuse others of being vile hypocrites.

LDST said no such thing. He said simply that it strengthened his resolve.

And frankly when I see the antics of and Uber Monolithic Mormon like Pahoran it reminds me of all the bad things that can result from an ultra hyper monolithic approach to the LDS Church and its doctrine. It is something that I am glad I no longer have in me. Pahoran my be a swell fellow in real life but boy he sure spews vile and hate to anyone who disagrees with anything that does not toe the LDS party line, no matter how reasonable.

Course what do I know. I am just a border line degenerate on my way to apostasy (your new favorite term to heap on people) as well as an anonymous cowardly hypocrite.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sorry, LDST, I strongly disagree with this guilt tactic.

If you want to leave, that is YOUR choice. No one made it for you. It isn't even remotely Pahoran's fault.

Shame on you.

Of course it's my choice - I've never claimed otherwise. Pahoran isn't the cause of my leaving, he is simply an example of the kind of person the church is capable of producing, and I can't be part of an organization that has that capability. Pahoran helped me realize this, and so it hastens my departure, but it is not the cause of my departure.

H.

Well T this is not totally fair either. Many organizations can produce hard liners like Pahoran. Religions, politcal parties, fan clubs of actors or sports teams, over devotions to a a company, etc. The LDS Church is not responsible for the vileness of a Pahoran and in fact I think many LDS leaders would frown upon his on line antics.

[_Jason Bourne]

Well the human race produced Ted Bundy and Osama bin Laden.

Don't forget Carrottop.

Hoops we don't always agree but I must say you are a funny fellow at times and I am sure it would be really great to sit down an talk about things and life and all sorts of stuff with you. Thanks for your sense of humor.

[_LDSToronto]

Of course it's my choice - I've never claimed otherwise. Pahoran isn't the cause of my leaving, he is simply an example of the kind of person the church is capable of producing, and I can't be part of an organization that has that capability. Pahoran helped me realize this, and so it hastens my departure, but it is not the cause of my departure.

H.

Well T this is not totally fair either. Many organizations can produce hard liners like Pahoran. Religions, politcal parties, fan clubs of actors or sports teams, over devotions to a a company, etc. The LDS Church is not responsible for the vileness of a Pahoran and in fact I think many LDS leaders would frown upon his on line antics.

This is true, and perhaps my characterization is using a brush stroke too broad. Pseudo-anonymity and personal factors weigh heavily. But... my experience is this: once I made the decision to go public with my doubts and my decisions, and once my wife made the same decisions, there was a distinct switch in the attitudes of many towards us. My stake president was loving and supportive; my bishop was neither here nor there, didn't seem to care either way; our best friends remained our best friends, in fact, they confessed some of their doubts. However, the majority? The majority exhibited behaviour akin to an amped-down Pahoran - they must be sinners, they have been foiled by the devil, they are stupid for believing the stuff they read, they must be apostate, etc etc etc. Same as family - wailing and gnashing of teeth to the point where I had to tell them to knock it the <bleep> off or they'd never see their grandchildren/nephews/cousins again.

So, while I don't believe that everyone turns out like Pahoran, I do think the church creates an environment that fosters an overly-protective, judgmental attitude in many of it's members.

But, I do respect your words, Jason, and take them to heart.

H.

[_Jason Bourne]

You do realize how often Pahoran has been insulted by the critics on this board and these insults have been occuring long before you arrived on the scene. Do you hold critics accountable? No. And so, as you leave the LDS church you are perfectly now free to be rude and insulting like many of the critics here. No one will hold you accountable. They will just call it a stage in the leaving process.

I have watched Pahoran post for years and years. Even when I was on the defenders side his posting style made cringe. He certainly is bright, knowledgeable and witty. But he is also mean spirited and spiteful. And sometimes even hateful. Too bad.

[_LDSToronto]

And so, as you leave the LDS church you are perfectly now free to be rude and insulting like many of the critics here. No one will hold you accountable. They will just call it a stage in the leaving process.

I don't want to be rude and insulting. Sarcastic and funny, maybe. But I don't find sport in hurting anyone.

H.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Well the human race produced Ted Bundy and Osama bin Laden. I cannot be part of an organization that is capable of producing such monsters.

You will be missed.

[_Jason Bourne]

This is true, and perhaps my characterization is using a brush stroke too broad. Pseudo-anonymity and personal factors weigh heavily. But... my experience is this: once I made the decision to go public with my doubts and my decisions, and once my wife made the same decisions, there was a distinct switch in the attitudes of many towards us. My stake president was loving and supportive; my bishop was neither here nor there, didn't seem to care either way; our best friends remained our best friends, in fact, they confessed some of their doubts. However, the majority? The majority exhibited behaviour akin to an amped-down Pahoran - they must be sinners, they have been foiled by the devil, they are stupid for believing the stuff they read, they must be apostate, etc etc etc. Same as family - wailing and gnashing of teeth to the point where I had to tell them to knock it the <bleep> off or they'd never see their grandchildren/nephews/cousins again.

This is certainly typical. I am not sure why. Some argue that it is due to a defense mechanism. Active LDS persons with strong testimonies that the Church is true and befuddled when someone that was especially strong and prominent leaves the Church. So the theory is that they must find some reason for the person leaving other than the person concluded rightly that the Church is not what it claims for itself. Perhaps this is part of human natures fight or flight mechanism.

Family is a bit more understandable. Having had a couple way ward kids I understand and even still struggle a bit with my adult son who has no interest in religion at all. They just had their first son and our first grandchild. And I always pictures the blessing, my son doing it and so on and that won't happen. He did say I could bless the baby if I wanted but it did not seem important to him and he also had not discussed it with his nominally Protestant wife. I am less worried these days about it as a NOMer but it does trouble my wife and disappoint her.

So, while I don't believe that everyone turns out like Pahoran, I do think the church creates an environment that fosters an overly-protective, judgmental attitude in many of it's members

Well sure. Why would anyone leave The One True Church? At least if someone sees it as such. Still it would seem that members would be better off loving the apostate rather than spurning them as often is the case.

But, I do respect your words, Jason, and take them to heart.

Thanks

Feeling is mutual.