Breaking Away

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_Quasimodo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Quasimodo »

just me wrote:Well, in studying the New Testament this year for SS class we are going through all the stuff on grace. It's just that when we talk about it we talk about how silly the other christians are for believing that grace is free. LOL As LDS we know that grace is something you earn.

Excuse me while I go LMAO.


Wow, I didn't know this (I'm a heathen). Doesn't having to earn grace negate the meaning of grace? If you have to pay for grace, then it's not grace.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_just me
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _just me »

Quasimodo wrote:
just me wrote:Well, in studying the New Testament this year for SS class we are going through all the stuff on grace. It's just that when we talk about it we talk about how silly the other christians are for believing that grace is free. LOL As LDS we know that grace is something you earn.

Excuse me while I go LMAO.


Wow, I didn't know this (I'm a heathen). Doesn't having to earn grace negate the meaning of grace? If you have to pay for grace, then it's not grace.


It's free after you earn it!

The church actually has two positions on this. THe other is that everyone will get resurrected and that is what grace gives us. It's a kingdom we have to earn our way into.

By grace we are saved....after all we can do. That is the main teaching, though.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Quasimodo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Quasimodo »

just me wrote:It's free after you earn it!


Our product is completely free. You only need to pay shipping and handling :).
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Some Schmo »

Rambo wrote:Plus Mormonism has so much rules.

I think this plus the "one true church" were the two major things that got me questioning religion generally. First off, I couldn't imagine I'd be lucky enough to just happen to be born into the right religion when there were so many out there. Given how crappy other aspects of my childhood were, it didn't feel consistent. I especially couldn't imagine it was the right religion when it felt so wrong.

Then, because it didn't feel right, I started thinking that religion was just something men made up to control people (hence, the issue with all the damn rules). It made sense to me that, since they were all different, they were all just systems to keep people in line.

But I certainly didn't question god until many, many years later. I had separated god (a.k.a. spirituality) from religion at a very young age, imagining that men were just control freaks and god didn't give a crap if you were part of any religions (notice how my own values got superimposed on my idea of god... something I see people doing every single day, which is why I always say, if you want to get to know people's values, ask them to describe god to you).

So for me, the church gets no credit for my rejection of god belief. That was all me thinking it through over many years and being brave enough to reject the beliefs of the majority. I wouldn't exactly say it was easy to let go of god belief. The idea is very powerful for the amount of comfort it provides. I really had to grow up to let it go.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_why me
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _why me »

just me wrote:
What do you find hard about living a New Testament christian life? Personally, I don't find anything difficult about it. It is no more difficult than living a responsible adult life.

The LDS god does have a lot of Old Testament qualities. He has a lot of ridiculous and arbitrary rules to follow. You do realize, I hope, that the Old Testament god is supposedly Jesus Christ. The Old Testament god is of the same nature as the New Testament god according to LDSism.


In the past, all christian churches had arbitary rules to follow based in the New Testament. Now it is different. Many churches are much more liberal because the moral code in the world has changed. The 'Mormon' god is a god that follows the teachings in the New Testament. The new testament god is not a god of eat, drink, be merry and you will saved by grace. It is one of: if you love god, you will keep his commandments and love your neighbor.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_just me
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _just me »

why me wrote:
just me wrote:
What do you find hard about living a New Testament christian life? Personally, I don't find anything difficult about it. It is no more difficult than living a responsible adult life.

The LDS god does have a lot of Old Testament qualities. He has a lot of ridiculous and arbitrary rules to follow. You do realize, I hope, that the Old Testament god is supposedly Jesus Christ. The Old Testament god is of the same nature as the New Testament god according to LDSism.


In the past, all christian churches had arbitary rules to follow based in the New Testament. Now it is different. Many churches are much more liberal because the moral code in the world has changed. The 'Mormon' god is a god that follows the teachings in the New Testament. The new testament god is not a god of eat, drink, be merry and you will saved by grace. It is one of: if you love god, you will keep his commandments and love your neighbor.


What are the difficult commandments that a modern christian must live to be saved by grace?
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Ceeboo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Ceeboo »

just me wrote:
What are the difficult commandments that a modern christian must live to be saved by grace?



Breathing?


Peace,
Ceeboo
_just me
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _just me »

Ceeboo wrote:
just me wrote:
What are the difficult commandments that a modern christian must live to be saved by grace?



Breathing?


Peace,
Ceeboo


That's a really tough requirement, Cee. I don't know if there are many humans who can handle it. *wink*
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Ceeboo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Ceeboo »

just me wrote:
That's a really tough requirement, Cee. I don't know if there are many humans who can handle it. *wink*


Then it appears that this grace thing might just be a gift given to us all (Never know) (Several winks in succession returned your way) :)
_stemelbow
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _stemelbow »

sock puppet wrote:I think there is more LDS apostates that go directly to non-belief, do not pass another religion 'and do not collect $200', than those that leave many other religions.


We can think anything we want, I suppose. Anyone one of us. But the facts are facts. There is [are] far more atheists who were never LDS than there are atheists who were LDS. In fact, there are far more atheists who were Protestant than there are atheists who were LDS. There are far more atheists who were Catholic....

Anyway, your wish here is just mere fantasy, SP.

I think this is due to how disapproving other Mormons (family, friends, neighbors) are when someone stops believing LDS teachings. They are ostracized and so that apostate starts re-evaluating from the bottom up, and takes a 'prove it to me' (evidentialist, reliabilist) approach before he or she is going to be snookered again. Before a Mormon takes that leap, he or she has pretty much been pulled and tugged for so long that he or she has clearly sorted out that this is not for him or her. Once finally extracted, he or she is emotionally spent in the belief area, he or she is downright skeptical of anything anyone else has suggested, even that there might be a god. So non-belief it is, until god's existence is proven, with evidence this time.


I think there are more former LDS who either have officially joined another religion or believe in God but no particular religion than there are atheists who were once LDS. Perhaps it would be interesting to see how it all breaks down. What percentage of former LDS are Hindu, or Baptist, or non-denominational, or whatever? Who knows maybe your arbitrary guess will come up registering some significant percentage--like 18% or something. I don't know.

Many that participate in other religions, less socially rigid than Mormonism, do not frown so much on their family, friends and neighbors that stop attending. The break is easier. And so before the entire belief construct has to be decimated to leave (as usually the social net of Mormonism demands; zeezrom is case in point), members of other religions that begin to question, feel uneasy, doubt the church they attend, they might try out another church for a month or two. Their neighbors are not banishing them, telling their children not to play with your children, etc. as is so frequent the case when a Mormon household apostatizes. So the break is not as severe with all held beliefs as the schism necessary for one to stop being actively Mormon.


You don't even seem to know if any of this is the case. Ah well...speculaton works sometimes.

Now I expect some TBM poster here will say this is all silly, but the proof is, as they say, in the pudding. Of course, that poster might say Mormonism is not unique in this regard, but he certainly won't venture an alternate hypothesis. But maybe there is one: Mormonism causes one not to believe in god.


That would be a ridiculous hypothesis since, for starters, there were those who did not believe in God pre-1830.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
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