Holy Cow!

[_Runtu]

For some reason, yesterday's trip through the mind games of apologetics made me realize something. If I'm ever to make any kind of peace with the LDS church, I have got to stop interacting with apologists.

Despite the cries of victory, every time I read these apologetic arguments, I come away thinking that no one should have to work that hard to wave away things that are plain and/or precious. It's as if the church has gone through the looking-glass and everything is distorted, up is down, true is false, doctrine is not doctrine, prophets are not prophets, and so on. It's ironic that, in defense of a religion that posits a stark division between truth and error, right and wrong, today's apologists seem dedicated to creating a Mormonism in which everything is a gray area, nothing is settled, and revelation from God must be parsed in minute detail so that it can be dismissed as not meaning much of anything. If nothing else, it makes me realize just how weak the church's position is and how desperate you have to be to make it work.

If I'm going to find a peaceful coexistence with Mormonism, it's important to me that I have some respect for the LDS church as an institution and for its doctrine. Unfortunately, most of what I have seen from apologists has made it harder for me to maintain that respect. It's time for me to write off the whole apologetics game as not worthy of my time and effort.

I console myself by thinking that most of the people making these apologetic arguments don't really believe what they're saying; the alternative is too depressing.

[_bcspace]

Ha, who are you to qualify some one's intent, level of faith, or was answered by a different spirit?

Precisely. I'm quite sure you and Runtu are misunderstanding, perhaps intentionally because all anti Mormonism is is a mind game, what kind of victory I am claiming. Nowhere can you find me claiming that my victories prove the LDS Church to be true. I truly must be the only intellectually honest person on this board.

[_Runtu]

Precisely. I'm quite sure you and Runtu are misunderstanding, perhaps intentionally because all anti Mormonism is is a mind game, what kind of victory I am claiming.

I haven't misunderstood. I just find your brand of apologetics depressing and not worth my time. I have a wedding to get ready for, and I don't have time for this kind of silliness.

The problem is that I go to church and I see good people doing their best to serve God and others. I like the Mormons I know, and I enjoy being with them. That is the kind of church I want to think of, not the one that's about word games, dishonest pseudoscholarship, and, too often, anger and hatred. I realized yesterday that the apologists were crowding out the goodwill I have for the real-life church. I don't want that to happen.

[Guest]

I already answered this question in the pinned thread on the subject. One can answer it rhetorically as well on this wise: If the Church publishes something and says it's not doctrine, is it still doctrine? The only rational answer of course is no and there are several examples such as the printed introduction to the Bible dictionary.

No bcspace, you haven't answered the question. As far as I know you've used two references from official publications to support your claim. The first comes from the Newsroom release, and I've already pointed out that it doesn't follow from anything said in that release that everything published is doctrine. Again, saying that X is found in Y is not the same as saying Everything in Y is X.

The second reference you've offered talks about keeping the doctrine pure. But, again, that doesn't entail that everything published is doctrine. You're having difficulty with elementary logic here. Let's take a look at your "purity" evidence. Here's what you quoted with regards to purity:

Also make sure that you use Church-produced materials when you teach. This will help you keep the doctrine pure

You then said this:

Question: How do you keep the doctrine pure?
Answer: Use Church-Produced materials.

I agree with you that if you want to keep the doctrine pure, then you should use official Church publications. What I disagree with is the claim you have yet to support that this is because everything in Church publications is doctrine.

Think this through, bcspace. I know you can do it. Suppose your organic chemistry teacher says to you:

Also make sure that you use ACS Examination in Organic Chemistry: The Official Guide to study for your organic chemistry ACS examination. This will help you keep your organic chemistry knowledge pure.

I happen to have an ACS Examination in Organic Chemistry: The Official Guide right here! Let me open it up. Page 3 begins:

Every year, students tell us that they really know more than they demonstrate on their final examination in organic chemistry.

Now, tell me, bcspace, is what I've quoted above organic chemistry?

[Guest]

So which category do I fall in, Droopy?

Do you have long hair?

[_Yoda]

Two minutes hate begins now...

So which category do I fall in, Droopy?[/quote]


Do you have long hair?[/quote]

Actually, I just got my hair cut. LOL It's shoulder length. How does that fit in? ;-)

[_Droopy]

Actually, I just got my hair cut. LOL It's shoulder length. How does that fit in? ;-)

Any maggots?

[_Yoda]

Actually, I just got my hair cut. LOL It's shoulder length. How does that fit in? ;-)

Any maggots?

Ewww...no!

[Guest]

I just find your brand of apologetics depressing and not worth my time.

I think you've proved otherwise on both counts. You just can't stay away from my "brand" of apologetics. But I submit that the depressing negativity comes almost entirely from you.

The problem is that I go to church and I see good people doing their best to serve God and others. I like the Mormons I know, and I enjoy being with them.

Sure.

That is the kind of church I want to think of, not the one that's about word games, dishonest pseudoscholarship, and, too often, anger and hatred.

Never at any time have I given any of that.

I realized yesterday that the apologists were crowding out the goodwill I have for the real-life church. I don't want that to happen.

You'll be back for more, I promise. But do go to Church.

[_Droopy]

You're OK, kid.