Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

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_Droopy
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _Droopy »

consiglieri wrote:
Droopy wrote: Its become clear over time that the MDD board and FAIR itself are harboring more neo-orthodox Mormons of the Joanna Brooks mold than appears on the surface.


I cannot understand why people call you paranoid, Droopy.



Hit the level on the slot machine again.

One lemon. Another, and another...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _Droopy »

I wonder how many times I'll have to ask consig what it is that makes Joanna Brooks a "believing" LDS equal in her faithfulness to the Church's teachings to a "TBM," and what truth claims she still accepts as true that would place her within the class "believing" Mormons?

I think we're on number four now, and he's still dancing...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Yes I understand your position and I expected you to take very hard line.


Droopy wrote:So Jesus is taking a "hard line?" Well, I guess that's so. The straight gate and narrow way are "hardcore" doctrines, I suppose.



Well if Jesus said it sure. Or perhaps your understanding of what he said is skewed. But I don't want to argue that. I am really more interested in what the results of taking a hard line or not taking a hard line will be on the Church. That is it.

So again my question to you is what should the Church do with the Joanna Brooks types? Should they be ex'd? Would you ex them if you were their SP?


That's up to the Church, not me, as to when or if she ever crosses that line. People like Sonja Johnson and others (like the noble, heroic "September Six") have crossed it, and there are general guidelines, but it appears to be a case by basis regarding such action.


Yes but it seems to me that Joanna would have been one of those had she been doing what she is doing 20 year ago. I think the dynamics have changed and for a variety of reasons the Church is less apt to give someone like this the boot. But not 20 years ago. I think it will change the Church dramatically either way with what it does in these cases.

The wheat and the tares are going to grow together until the very end. I'm fine with that, but I'm not fine with people claiming to be "faithful" or "believing" members of the church when they clearly have left behind many of the salient conceptions that differentiate the Church and its beliefs from other systems of belief and from the Great and Spacious Building. Don't call yourself a "believing" member when you patently are not, and are attempting to graft alien doctrines and philosophies onto the tame olive tree.


But it seems to me you are not fine with it really. And I think the Church is becoming more tolerant which could result in what to describe above. It will be fascinating to watch this play out.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _Jason Bourne »

consiglieri wrote:I think the Church can do both, if it accomodates (and embraces) those such as Joanna who self-identify as Mormons while not abandoning and denying the core doctrines that make Mormonism so distinctive.

I know it will never happen, but I like to imagine.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


What do you think will happen?
_Darth J
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote:OK, so she's a typical politically correct leftist New Order/neo-orthodox Mormon with an ax to grind and an ark to steady.


But she has too many fish to fry with her finger in the dike as the winds of change drown her in the bitter galls of apostasy like a mountain.
_Chap
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _Chap »

Well, here is the Testimony of Joanna Brooks. It was good enough for Daniel Peterson, who is, I believe, a bishop, to post with the other 'Messages of Faith from scholars who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Is it known whether she has a Temple Recommend?

As a member born-and-raised of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I learned from the time I was a very small child to view human experience as richly meaningful and therefore sacred. I listened to the testimonies of everyday men and women at church on Sundays, to sacred stories passed down from my ancestors, and to my own parents’ careful teaching. When I was seven years old and preparing for baptism, my father and I read the Book of Mormon together every night until we finished the book. Through these experiences, I learned to value reflection and discerning interpretation. I learned to place great faith in the revelatory power of words—both the words of scripture and words carefully rendered from human experience.

I know these early experiences contributed to my formation as a scholar, teacher, and writer. By teaching that “the glory of God is intelligence” (Doctrine and Covenants 93:36), Mormonism taught me that it was good to cultivate my mind in the service of others. Consequently, I have made my living as a professional scholar of American literature, culture, and religion.

Although I have sometimes encountered curiosity or misunderstanding about Mormonism in particular, I have never experienced outright hostility towards belief in a university setting. I credit this in part to the opening up of the academy to women and people of color in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. For many communities of color, faith is understood as a central component of community life with unique powers that surpass those of what modern philosophers have called “reason.” In this way, as a Mormon, and especially as a Mormon who studies race and religion in American life, I believe I have benefited tremendously from the exemplary work of writers and scholars of color in the social sciences and humanities.

I am not afraid to say that I believe in a merciful, powerful, compassionate God who is available to all who search. I believe as is taught in 2 Nephi 26: 33: God “denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female . . . all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” As a Mormon born before the 1978 lifting of the ban on priesthood for males of African descent, it has been my privilege to witness how Mormonism has opened itself to inspired changes that have led us closer to realizing the dream of Zion as a gathering of the “pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). I believe this gathering process is still unfolding. I am grateful to belong to a community that has always emphasized hard work and service to others. Struggles for justice and dignity have always spoken powerfully to me as a Mormon and a person of faith.

I believe in prayer, and Mormonism is the language I pray in. Through many life phases and challenges, I have always found comfort—sometimes astonishingly immediate comfort—from prayer. I have never been too proud to kneel and ask for help. Through the practice of prayer I have learned how to listen, how to wait for words, and how to discipline my needs, wants, and words into a shape harmonious with powers that are greater than I. Prayer as a spiritual discipline has harmonized in many ways with the forms of discipline I’ve learned as a writer, teacher, and scholar.

I believe that we are profoundly connected to our ancestors. Mormonism teaches us that our souls do not enter the eternities alone but within a great matrix of belonging that embraces our kindred dead. This is to me among the most beautiful and distinctive doctrines of our tradition. Stories passed down through my maternal grandmother’s ancestral line bear special witness to our ancestors’ immediate presence in our lives. I am grateful to my mother, an expert genealogist, who in the great tradition of Mormonism has searched out the names and stories of our kindred dead. She has been, in her own way, a model of historical inquiry for me. Cultivating a closer, more responsible relationship to the past can bear redemptive effects on the present: this I believe as a Mormon and as a scholar.

I believe in a merciful and powerful God, a Mother and Father in Heaven. It was within Mormonism that I learned to conceive of God as both male and female, Mother and Father. In 1845, Eliza R. Snow, one of our great poets and leaders, once wrote: “In the heavens, are parents single? / No, the thought makes reason stare. / Truth is reason, truth eternal / tells me I’ve a mother there.” This is another distinctively Mormon doctrine that I treasure.

Over the years my need for certainty on doctrinal particulars has melted away, replaced instead by a hopeful, compassionate, future-oriented faith and sense of trust. I believe in a life of courageous and rigorous searching. This searching for me is exemplified within Mormon tradition by the story of Joseph Smith, who took his difficult questions to God in prayer in a grove of trees in upstate New York, and by the stories of our Mormon pioneers whose search for a community of faith led them away from their familiar homes across the American plains towards an uncertain future in a new place. I believe that God neither provides us with nor expects us to have all the answers, but that to live great questions with an open and humble heart is to experience the grace and the presence of God. I consider it a privilege to have learned these lessons within the Mormon tradition.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Droopy wrote:I wonder how many times I'll have to ask consig what it is that makes Joanna Brooks a "believing" LDS equal in her faithfulness to the Church's teachings to a "TBM," and what truth claims she still accepts as true that would place her within the class "believing" Mormons?

I think we're on number four now, and he's still dancing...


What makes her not a TBM? I've been reading and hearing from church leaders and apologists that the church does not hold fundamentalist positions and people are free to have different opinions on LDS doctrine and remain a member in good standing. In fact, it is the exmormons who are accused of holding the church to fundamentalist doctrines, and it is the apologists who are accused by critics of redefining LDS doctrines to be more PC.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_consiglieri
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _consiglieri »

Here's what I just posted over there. I hope they will put it up on their webpage. (It is currently under "review.")

In what appears to be an attempt to make himself look smart and superior, Professor Hancock succeeds only in appearing smug and shallow.

The lowest point of all is surely when he accuses Joanna Brooks of having an Electra Complex.

Real classy, professor.

And he gives himself away when he describes Joanna as having "a Mormon life with a difference."

God forbid any Mormon should be different.

I am proud to be a member of the same church as Joanna Brooks. Would there were more like her.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _consiglieri »

Droopy wrote:Which is, after all, a subtle yet clear if oblique admission that Joanna Brooks has, indeed, abandoned and denied "the core doctrines that make Mormonism distinctive."



It is the Mormon Church who is abandoning and denying it's distinctive doctrines, Droopy.

Or haven't you been paying attention?

Joanna's views actually run the other way.

Funny, that.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: Witch Burning in Progress at Meridian Magazine

Post by _consiglieri »

Droopy wrote:Which is, after all, a subtle yet clear if oblique admission that Joanna Brooks has, indeed, abandoned and denied "the core doctrines that make Mormonism distinctive."

If she hadn't abandoned a fair portion of them, the question of the Church "accommodating" here would never need be raised at all, would they? To ask the question is to answer it.

Oh, but I forgot, Joanna Brooks is a scholar. She has an advanced degree. She's smart (American literature, African-American literature, Native American literature, and women’s studies. This woman is very likely a classic model of the contemporary PC academy and every salient aspect of its intellectual degradation. Yet another Saint is "overcome of the world" and throws up their hands under the mocking, pointing fingers of the Great and Spacious Building. Sad). She must be smart because she has an advanced degree, which makes her smart and makes her smarter than people without an advanced formal degree, who are dumb because they don't have an advanced degree unlike smart (and hip, enlightened, "progressive") people like Joanna Brooks.

Therefore...she must be right, she must be listened to, and all "chapel" Mormons must defer to her (because they're dumb, uneducated, and don't have formal, advanced degrees in trendy disciplines (if one could call them that) like woman's studies) as the hoi polloi before the Platonic guardians.

All bow to the arm of flesh; all bend the knee to the golden calf of the "studies" departments of our once noble universities.


Do you get paid by the freaking word or what?

Or does it really take that long to set up a straw man?
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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