Sic et Non, this time Non.

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_Eric

Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _Eric »

harmony wrote:So it's okay to worship living presidents of the church, but it's not okay to worship living presidents of the country?

Did I miss something?


Just one thing:

It's not just okay to "mock" politicians, it's the "moral duty" of Mormons everywhere, armed with blogspot addresses, to belittle the President and those who support him.

Mocking Presidents of the Mormon Church, now that's just plain bigotry.

One more thing:
The message board at NewtGingrich360.com = The Los Angeles Times
_asbestosman
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _asbestosman »

Kishkumen wrote:Abman, I have not known Dr. Peterson to be persuaded by *anything* I have EVER written. Have you? Seriously?

It has nothing to do with his obviously high intelligence. He simply rarely if ever concedes anything in an argument. When he does, it is usually some ancillary point, which he argues does not undermine his larger point.

So, you know this is true, don't you?

Yes. That is my observation as well.

Why are you writing as though it is not?

Because I think from his point of view, he truly believes there is nothing to concede. While I don't think he's always right about that, I think he can usually make a good case for it and I imagine he would be able to do so for this.

There is one exception I have for him making a good case and it was how he responded to Papa once. I forget the exact details so I need to be careful. The gist of it was that Papa said some unflattering things about Islam and Daniel Peterson insinuated some unflattering things about Papa. Daniel Peterson then more or less denied this. While I usually try to give him the benefit of the doubt, this one time I could not see a way to do it. If, however, this is his one fault or biggest fault he is a far better man than most.

In all likelihood he probably should concede on more points than he has, but I think in general he is criticized far more than he deserves.

You know, I don't have to write for Daniel to comment on Daniel's writing. I don't have to be motivated by dislike for Daniel to disagree with him. I can still like you and yet be disappointed with your tepid and half-baked engagement with the ideas I posted here. All these things are not only possible, they happen to be true from my point of view.

Fair enough.

Well, maybe in some sense it's reassuring to know you care enough to still be disappointed. I'm not particularly proud of my shortcomings but I don't always recognize them.


Anyhow, I would think anyone should take praise for a politician from his or her spouse with a very big grain of salt. Doubly so if there is a cultural aspect to it. But I'll bet Daniel Peterson had those thoughts long before the First Lady alluded to scripture.


Or perhaps my opinion about Daniel Peterson usually having a good case not to concede is merely my own naïve idealism which, like President Obama, I out to change. Maybe someone else can bring me out of the dark and into the light. ;)
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_sock puppet
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _sock puppet »

asbestosman wrote:In all likelihood he probably should concede on more points than he has, but I think in general he is criticized far more than he deserves.

What is your hypothesis for why this might be the case?
_asbestosman
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _asbestosman »

sock puppet wrote:What is your hypothesis for why this might be the case?

I think it's for a various reasons. More people pay attention to him and extra attention implies extra criticism. He also seems to be a sort of symbol for Mormon apologetics and at times for Mormon authoritarianism. That is, I think in a way people like to verbally attack him as a proxy for the church or other things they dislike about it. Other factors include that he is quite intelligent so attacking him may offer a bit more of a challenge than attacking someone less capable. Furthermore the fact that he will display outright anger rather than avoiding anger as some do (say David Brokovoy, Benjamin McGuire, or Consig although Consig will have fun toying with someone) likely contributes.
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_sock puppet
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _sock puppet »

asbestosman wrote:
sock puppet wrote:What is your hypothesis for why this might be the case?

I think it's for a various reasons. More people pay attention to him and extra attention implies extra criticism. He also seems to be a sort of symbol for Mormon apologetics and at times for Mormon authoritarianism. That is, I think in a way people like to verbally attack him as a proxy for the church or other things they dislike about it. Other factors include that he is quite intelligent so attacking him may offer a bit more of a challenge than attacking someone less capable. Furthermore the fact that he will display outright anger rather than avoiding anger as some do (say David Brokovoy, Benjamin McGuire, or Consig although Consig will have fun toying with someone) likely contributes.

What degree of criticism do you think he fairly deserves?
_asbestosman
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _asbestosman »

sock puppet wrote:What degree of criticism do you think he fairly deserves?

Liz and Jason seem reasonable in that regard. I think Scratch, even by by himself, is too much.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _Kishkumen »

asbestosman wrote:Because I think from his point of view, he truly believes there is nothing to concede.


Well, you're going to have to try a lot harder if you want to be his proxy, because so far you are not giving me any reason not to do exactly as I have done. I really struggle to see why you have bothered with this entire thread.

asbestosman wrote:Maybe someone else can bring me out of the dark and into the light. ;)


So whose cult of personality are you shilling for now? :wink:
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch is definitely on to something in his fascination with the psychology of LDS apologists, chief among them Dr. Daniel Peterson. As I have admitted recently, I have become a casual follower of Dr. Peterson's "Sic et Non" blog, where he favors the world with this musings on various subjects.

He has continued with his reflections on personality cult and the presidency in a recent entry concerning his two encounters with Jimmy Carter.

The entry begins, appropriately enough, with a candid story about a humorless interpretation of a cheeky sign at the 1976 Democratic convention, which read "JC can save America." Dr. Peterson's unnamed friend saw this sign and was inexplicably offended that someone dared to enter upon the "blasphemy" of intending JC in two quite different senses at the same time: Jesus Christ and Jimmy Carter.

I must have missed that extra dose of humorlessness in my DNA that would render me incapable of imagining a God with enough of a sense of humor to find that worth a chuckle.

Dr. Peterson accompanied his friend to protest this sign at a Carter campaign stop in SLC. He assures us, on the one hand, that protesting in public is "not his thing," and that he only yielded to the request out of a feeling of obligation to an old missionary companion and friend. Then, on the other hand, he informs us that his "expressed dislike of messianic pretensions in politicians is genuine, and of longstanding."

So much, indeed, that the only way he could be dragged to protest something as silly as that sign was out of a sense of obligation to an old missionary pal.

In any case, dutifully accompanying his friend, Peterson stood in position to assist in holding up a sign calling upon Jimmy to disavow this one particular "JC" sign. As fate would have it, Carter saw the sign and shouted at the doughty duo, "I didn't like that either!" Clearly, there was a man who could judge what played in Peoria or not.

Peterson informs us that the matter was thus settled for him. As he claims, he never doubted Carter's devout Christianity (thank goodness, the man was a lifelong Sunday School teacher, a fairly decent indication), and so he never imagined that Jimmy would ever confuse himself with the Messiah. Peterson then goes on to relate his second, more recent encounter with Carter, which reaffirmed his respect for the former president in spite of their abiding political differences. The Jimmy on the road to Emmaus was no more disconcerting than his earlier Salt Lake epiphany, as it turned out.

Like many of Peterson's posts, this one is rather revealing. Its aim seems to be to reassure his reader and himself that he is a fair-minded man, who does not confuse religion and politics to the point where he would assume that a man must be a blasphemer and phony Christian simply because he is a Democrat. In other words, he is big enough to acknowledge that it is possible to be a Democrat and an actual Christian. By extension, we can imagine that, unlike Droopy and bcspace, for example, Daniel Peterson may even go so far as to allow Democrats the benefit of the doubt with it comes to the capacity to be good LDS folk as well.

The revealing part is that Carter serves as an obvious foil for President Obama. Just as Peterson assumed that Carter was sincere in his Christianity, and thus he was not so much surprised as relieved to find that Jimmy disapproved of the sign too, Peterson seems to imply that he does not believe that Barack Obama is a true Christian and sees the president as rather relishing this quasi-messianic cult of personality aimed at him.

There was a time when I might have looked to see the devil's horns on my opponent's head. In times of uncertainty, it is reassuring, I suppose, to know who your enemies are. Unfortunately, it is in times of uncertainty that people are given to identifying others as enemies a little too easily and then scapegoating them. Thus it happens that "the gays" become responsible, in the minds of the disturbed armchair theologians of our world, for tsunamis in the Far East and the stumbling of America at the hand of an angry God. And the president who has an unusual name and professes a Christianity of a different kind suddenly becomes the anti-Christ in the minds of others.

I can't help but think that all of this talk of Obama the "false messiah" is really an act of tagging a pretty bland president of the United States as an anti-Christ in tentative apocalyptic speculation. It reminds me of the reelection of President Clinton during my time at BYU. So many students were wringing their hands and talking of the "signs of the times" in response to this cataclysmic event--the reelection of Clinton. Even in the most learned minds, the temptation is almost overwhelming, it would seem.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Great post, Reverend. I liked this part of Prof. P's remarks:

DCP wrote:I really dislike public protests of that (or pretty much any other) kind, and am not fond of confrontations.


That was a real howler, I thought, because it's so true. He especially dislikes confrontation on Facebook, and by email, and via his blog. He hates confrontations on the TIME Lightbox site, too.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_moksha
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Re: Sic et Non, this time Non.

Post by _moksha »

sock puppet wrote:
asbestosman wrote:In all likelihood he probably should concede on more points than he has, but I think in general he is criticized far more than he deserves.

What is your hypothesis for why this might be the case?


My hypothesis is that instead of reserving criticism for actions or ideas, the willingness to criticize starts extending to the person. Religiously, I do not accept that it is our place to criticize the person.

Dr. Peterson can speak nonsense just like the rest of us. As a person he is a fellow child of God.
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