M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_mercyngrace
_Emeritus
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 pm

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _mercyngrace »

Chap wrote:
OK - just to see how it looks:

I believe that, like all religions, the CoJCoLDS is a purely human institution. I do not believe it has any message from a superior power for mankind. The good bits in it are, at least potentially and to a large extent actually, the common property of mankind. The bad bits are in part common to all centrally maintained structures of belief and authority, and partly stem from peculiar historical features of the history of the Mormon church. Like other religions, it has features that seem to any person looking at them for the first time to be quite implausible and even mildly ridiculous, but which are much more easily accepted by people habituated to the church by their parents from their earliest years. As a religion of relatively recent growth, and one that makes major historical claims (a Jewish civilization in the Americas, and so on) the CoJCoLDS is particularly vulnerable to attack based on secular scholarship. Sadly, the determination of some Mormons to defend against all such attacks leads them into argumentative tactics that are hard to see as consistent with intellectual integrity. Further, the reluctance of the church to tell prospective converts the whole truth can look like a deliberate 'bait and switch' game.

But to many ordinary people, Mormonism is the channel through which they try to express the best they know. I have no interest in knocking on their doors to tell them they ought to give it up. However, if anyone turns up here to argue that the Book of Abraham is anything other than a pious fraud or (more charitably) a pious delusion suffered by Joseph Smith, I 'll take them on.

There: now I have attacked M&G's religion. I wonder how upset she will be, Ray?


Chap,
I don't think that's an unreasonable position. A lot of people believe that. At one time, I even believed it, at least superficially - I never could fully and honestly deconstruct some of my spiritual experiences and even when I broke them down and analyzed them, they still were.

I won't even attempt to argue anyone into belief or condemn them for unbelief because if my life hadn't played out as it has, I'd be just as incredulous. I wish I could prove what I know in my bones but I can't. I... had an experience... I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real! I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever... A vision... of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone! I wish... I... could share that... I wish, that everyone, if only for one... moment, could feel... that awe, and humility, and hope. But... That continues to be my wish.

Besides, if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space.

Have a good one.
"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _Kishkumen »

mercyngrace wrote:I don't think that's an unreasonable position. A lot of people believe that. At one time, I even believed it, at least superficially - I never could fully and honestly deconstruct some of my spiritual experiences and even when I broke them down and analyzed them, they still were.

I won't even attempt to argue anyone into belief or condemn them for unbelief because if my life hadn't played out as it has, I'd be just as incredulous. I wish I could prove what I know in my bones but I can't. I... had an experience... I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real! I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever... A vision... of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone! I wish... I... could share that... I wish, that everyone, if only for one... moment, could feel... that awe, and humility, and hope. But... That continues to be my wish.

Besides, if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space.

Have a good one.


I have so much respect for you and your viewpoint. Best wishes to you.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _Chap »

mercyngrace wrote:
Chap wrote:
OK - just to see how it looks:

I believe that, like all religions, the CoJCoLDS is a purely human institution. I do not believe it has any message from a superior power for mankind. The good bits in it are, at least potentially and to a large extent actually, the common property of mankind. The bad bits are in part common to all centrally maintained structures of belief and authority, and partly stem from peculiar historical features of the history of the Mormon church. Like other religions, it has features that seem to any person looking at them for the first time to be quite implausible and even mildly ridiculous, but which are much more easily accepted by people habituated to the church by their parents from their earliest years. As a religion of relatively recent growth, and one that makes major historical claims (a Jewish civilization in the Americas, and so on) the CoJCoLDS is particularly vulnerable to attack based on secular scholarship. Sadly, the determination of some Mormons to defend against all such attacks leads them into argumentative tactics that are hard to see as consistent with intellectual integrity. Further, the reluctance of the church to tell prospective converts the whole truth can look like a deliberate 'bait and switch' game.

But to many ordinary people, Mormonism is the channel through which they try to express the best they know. I have no interest in knocking on their doors to tell them they ought to give it up. However, if anyone turns up here to argue that the Book of Abraham is anything other than a pious fraud or (more charitably) a pious delusion suffered by Joseph Smith, I 'll take them on.

There: now I have attacked M&G's religion. I wonder how upset she will be, Ray?


Chap,
I don't think that's an unreasonable position. A lot of people believe that. At one time, I even believed it, at least superficially - I never could fully and honestly deconstruct some of my spiritual experiences and even when I broke them down and analyzed them, they still were.

I won't even attempt to argue anyone into belief or condemn them for unbelief because if my life hadn't played out as it has, I'd be just as incredulous. I wish I could prove what I know in my bones but I can't. I... had an experience... I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real! I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever... A vision... of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone! I wish... I... could share that... I wish, that everyone, if only for one... moment, could feel... that awe, and humility, and hope. But... That continues to be my wish.

Besides, if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space.

Have a good one.


Well Ray, M&G seems to have survived my vicious assault on all she holds dear, hasn't she?

M&G - I have no problem in sharing your vision, this bit in particular:

A vision... of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone!


This bit, however, I dissent from:

if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space.


You aren't a waste of space, and on my better days I don't think I am either. We are not alone because there is ... all of us! We are the only known source of values in this cosmos, so play nice everybody, while it lasts ...
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:You aren't a waste of space, and on my better days I don't think I am either. We are not alone because there is ... all of us! We are the only known source of values in this cosmos, so play nice everybody, while it lasts ...


I don't think that is what she meant. And I don't see what is illegitimate about her deriving meaning from the cosmos in a different way from you, such that you feel her pronouncement of what is meaningful to her requires some kind of rebuttal.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Chap wrote:You aren't a waste of space, and on my better days I don't think I am either. We are not alone because there is ... all of us! We are the only known source of values in this cosmos, so play nice everybody, while it lasts ...


I don't think that is what she meant. And I don't see what is illegitimate about her deriving meaning from the cosmos in a different way from you, such that you feel her pronouncement of what is meaningful to her requires some kind of rebuttal.


I fail to see how you could interpret my eirenic attempt to offer common ground between a theistic and non-theistic viewpoint as 'some kind of rebuttal'.

I'm happy with my talk with M&G, and I suspect she has no problem with what I have said.

Maybe you are a bit too easily irritated to catch the friendly tone of this exchange accurately.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _stemelbow »

Heya MnG.

I've always enjoyed your posts. Indeed I look forward to them. If you are one who is not attacked by Consiglieri then you must be a decent person. Oh wait...
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:Maybe you are a bit too easily irritated to catch the friendly tone of this exchange accurately.


OK. I say this in a friendly way: you seem to have misinterpreted her. I don't think it is necessarily friendly to contradict a person's heartfelt declaration of belief immediately after she has made it. That's just my perspective.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Chap wrote:Maybe you are a bit too easily irritated to catch the friendly tone of this exchange accurately.


OK. I say this in a friendly way: you seem to have misinterpreted her.


M&G is a big girl. I'll wait for her to tell me if I have misunderstood her.

Kishkumen wrote:I don't think it is necessarily friendly to contradict a person's heartfelt declaration of belief immediately after she has made it. That's just my perspective.


She gives her heartfelt declaration of belief. I give mine, which is not far from hers but differs somewhat.

Call that 'contradicting' if you like. In a context like this, I'd call it 'sharing'.

I think this is one of those cases where a bystander may see less of the game.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_RockSlider
_Emeritus
Posts: 6752
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:02 am

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _RockSlider »

_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: M&G Lays Some Serious Smack Down on Why Me

Post by _why me »

RayAgostini wrote:
When they turn on her religious beliefs, she might have an awakening.

That's all I have to say for now.


I think that she is safe on this board. When a poster begins to write about the cosmos and being insignificant, all is well here on this board. Nothing wrong in that. I only find it amazing that she can lecture the apologists to have higher standards and not take the people who are critics to task when they do not show mercy and grace to the defenders.

That is what got me going.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
Post Reply