Book of Mormon Borrowings from the New Testament

[_vessr]

Your thoughts???

I've already expressed my views and why I think your observations are meaningless.

Joseph Smith could not read the plates nor did he know what they contained. He did not translate them as someone who knew both the Nephite and English language would. The translations were revealed to Joseph Smith in his mind in a form he was familiar with and in terms of the Bible that he was also familiar with. This is literally an American 19th century production BECAUSE it is a 19th century product of a 19th century mind. Your proposition is that it should be something other than that. Why should that be true? Now, if God had translated the plates, handed the translation to Joseph Smith and said print this - you might have a point. That is not what happened here.

Yes, Tobin, I already have your views. I am looking for OTHERS' views, for your view only expresses, well, your view.

You called my observations meaningless, yet you never worked through each example to show me how specifically the patterns for “translation” developed. Each example I gave was very specific as to a parallel between the Book of Mormon verse(s) and the corresponding New Testament verse(s); and I was asking others (other than what you’ve already expressed in general terms) how they view it more specifically.

You say that “Joseph Smith could not read the plates nor did he know what they contained.” That is not true. He could read them and knew what they contained by looking into a hat, shielding his eyes from the light, and reading the translation from a magical rock. He DID translate them as someone who knew both the Nephite and English language; for the Nephite language was allegedly given him in English to read.

You say the “translations were revealed to Joseph Smith in his mind in a form he was familiar with and in terms of the Bible that he was also familiar with.” But that is not how the eyewitnesses reported it. They said he took his head and put it into a hat and then read lines from the rock until the transcriber got it right. It wasn’t based on familiar words in his mind and terms in the Bible he was familiar with. It was given in English that didn’t required Joseph to think or ponder, but rather to read the words in his hat.

You say it’s “an American 19th century production BECAUSE it is a 19th century product.” But Joseph only had to understand English; he didn’t understand King James English very well, as is clear in many of the mistakes he made in his 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, even though he could read an memorize Bible passages.

You write, “Now, if God had translated the plates, handed the translation to Joseph Smith and said print this - you might have a point.” That’s exactly what the eyewitnesses said he did! The words appeared to him in the hat and he read them off to the scribe. That IS what happened.

So, my observations should be of value to a Mormon who wants to understand how it occurred. It is also of value to the critic who wants to understand the process of getting those English words to the scribes. It is NOT absurd, as you say, to think “that the critics would turn and ask God about this ever.” Many HAVE!!!

[_bcuzbcuz]

3. In Acts 16:4, we read, “as they went through the cities, they delivered them the DECREES FOR TO KEEP . …” In PARALLEL way, this double preposition phrase (“the decrees for to keep”) is different from the one above (“for of … fiery indignation”) and is found in Mosiah 13:25: “Have ye taught this people that they should observe to do all these things FOR TO KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS?” How can this be, unless Joseph Smith was copying from the New Testament phrase, “FOR TO KEEP”?

Although I want to be sure before I make a final judgment (which could cost me my eternal life, if I'm wrong), it appears as if Joseph took many passages from the New Testament to provide the scriptural backbone for his Book of Mormon stories.

Your thoughts???

I think I understand your thoughts of apprehension before you make a final judgement, in which case I would say, put off any decisions. There is time enough.

But on the other hand, your observations are spot on. Smith is not only copying scripture, he is claiming divine guidance, even to the point that his copying is somehow proof of the divinity of his work. Truly circular reasoning.

As far as the cryptic wording of "for to keep" in both Acts and Mosiah, the same cryptic wording is in the lyrics of "Horse With No Name" by America. Sing-a-long everyone.....

I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name,
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.

La, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la
La, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la

That must mean the songs lyrics are inspired of God? Especially the la-la part.

[_Tobin]

You say that “Joseph Smith could not read the plates nor did he know what they contained.” That is not true. He could read them and knew what they contained by looking into a hat, shielding his eyes from the light, and reading the translation from a magical rock. He DID translate them as someone who knew both the Nephite and English language; for the Nephite language was allegedly given him in English to read.

Fascinating. Why did Joseph Smith need magic rocks if he knew the language? Hmmm? Maybe Joseph Smith did not know the Nephite language because Joseph Smith was not a Nephite. Maybe because noone alive knew the Nephite language. It is true that God revealed the translations in terms that Joseph Smith could understand them, which was in the phrases and religious English terms as best he understood them from the Bible. God did not take Joseph Smith and spend years teaching him the Nephite language, such as the alphabet, idioms, and so on in order to translate their language into English as you are suggesting. IN FACT, much of the time he wasn't even looking at the plates - he was looking at a seer stone covering his FACE with a HAT!!!

You say the “translations were revealed to Joseph Smith in his mind in a form he was familiar with and in terms of the Bible that he was also familiar with.” But that is not how the eyewitnesses reported it. They said he took his head and put it into a hat and then read lines from the rock until the transcriber got it right. It wasn’t based on familiar words in his mind and terms in the Bible he was familiar with. It was given in English that didn’t required Joseph to think or ponder, but rather to read the words in his hat.

Did anyone else see these words? Seems pretty clear to me they were revealed only to Joseph Smith's mind and no one else. And in what language were these words shown to Joseph Smith - were they in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English? They were in English. And how were these words selected if not from Joseph Smith's mind and in terms and phrases that would be familiar to him in English? In fact, why was Joseph Smith involved at all if that were not the case? Wouldn't it have been simpler for God to take an afternoon and type out the Book of Mormon and hand it to Joseph Smith and say - go print this? I believe you haven't thought very long or carefully about what is going on here or what is claimed.

You say it’s “an American 19th century production BECAUSE it is a 19th century product.” But Joseph only had to understand English; he didn’t understand King James English very well, as is clear in many of the mistakes he made in his 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, even though he could read an memorize Bible passages.

And unsurprisingly, that is EXACTLY what we see are his mistakes because he was involved in its production. His poor understanding of KJE included.

You write, “Now, if God had translated the plates, handed the translation to Joseph Smith and said print this - you might have a point.” That’s exactly what the eyewitnesses said he did! The words appeared to him in the hat and he read them off to the scribe. That IS what happened.

No, that is what you allude they said. In fact, that is not what happened otherwise Joseph Smith would not have been involved at all. This is actually the theory that makes me laugh the most when expressed by a Mormon critic. They turn Joseph Smith into God's sock puppet.

So, my observations should be of value to a Mormon who wants to understand how it occurred. It is also of value to the critic who wants to understand the process of getting those English words to the scribes. It is NOT absurd, as you say, to think “that the critics would turn and ask God about this ever.” Many HAVE!!!

No, it is absurd. If someone were seeking God, they would just ask him about this and do as he said. The critic looks for excuses not to do so. They look for human weaknesses and attack that, stating it is not perfect so they should not be believed and as a result - they will not humble themselves and seek God to know the truth. And because of their pride and the arrogance of their hearts, they condemn the things of God. But know this, when you do such things they will be returned to you at the last day. You will be shown the truthfullness of all of this by the Lord and you will stand ashamed and condemned because you did not seek God out and called his words foolish and would not follow him.

[_vessr]

You say that “Joseph Smith could not read the plates nor did he know what they contained.” That is not true. He could read them and knew what they contained by looking into a hat, shielding his eyes from the light, and reading the translation from a magical rock. He DID translate them as someone who knew both the Nephite and English language; for the Nephite language was allegedly given him in English to read.

Fascinating. Why did Joseph Smith need magic rocks if he knew the language? Hmmm? Maybe Joseph Smith did not know the Nephite language because Joseph Smith was not a Nephite. Maybe because noone alive knew the Nephite language. It is true that God revealed the translations in terms that Joseph Smith could understand them, which was in the phrases and religious English terms as best he understood them from the Bible. God did not take Joseph Smith and spend years teaching him the Nephite language, such as the alphabet, idioms, and so on in order to translate their language into English as you are suggesting.

You say the “translations were revealed to Joseph Smith in his mind in a form he was familiar with and in terms of the Bible that he was also familiar with.” But that is not how the eyewitnesses reported it. They said he took his head and put it into a hat and then read lines from the rock until the transcriber got it right. It wasn’t based on familiar words in his mind and terms in the Bible he was familiar with. It was given in English that didn’t required Joseph to think or ponder, but rather to read the words in his hat.

Did anyone else see these words? Seems pretty clear to me they were revealed only to Joseph Smith's mind and no one else. And in what language were these words shown to Joseph Smith - were they in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English? They were in English. And how were these words selected if not from Joseph Smith's mind and in terms and phrases that would be familiar to him in English? In fact, why was Joseph Smith involved at all if that were not the case? Wouldn't it have been simpler for God to take an afternoon and type out the Book of Mormon and hand it to Joseph Smith and say - go print this? I believe you haven't thought very long or carefully about what is going on here or what is claimed.

You say it’s “an American 19th century production BECAUSE it is a 19th century product.” But Joseph only had to understand English; he didn’t understand King James English very well, as is clear in many of the mistakes he made in his 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, even though he could read an memorize Bible passages.

And unsurprisingly, that is EXACTLY what we see are his mistakes because he was involved in its production. His poor understanding of KJE included.

You write, “Now, if God had translated the plates, handed the translation to Joseph Smith and said print this - you might have a point.” That’s exactly what the eyewitnesses said he did! The words appeared to him in the hat and he read them off to the scribe. That IS what happened.

No, that is what you allude they said. In fact, that is not what happened otherwise Joseph Smith would not have been involved at all. This is actually the theory that makes me laugh the most when expressed by a Mormon critic. They turn Joseph Smith into God's sock puppet.

So, my observations should be of value to a Mormon who wants to understand how it occurred. It is also of value to the critic who wants to understand the process of getting those English words to the scribes. It is NOT absurd, as you say, to think “that the critics would turn and ask God about this ever.” Many HAVE!!!

No, it is absurd. If someone were seeking God, they would just ask him about this and do as he said. The critic looks for excuses not to do so. They look for human weaknesses and attack that, stating it is not perfect so they should not be believed and as a result - they will not humble themselves and seek God to know the truth. And because of their pride and the arrogance of their hearts, they condemn the things of God. But know this, when you do such things they will be returned to you at the last day. You will be shown the truthfullness of all of this by the Lord and you will stand ashamed and condemned because you did not seek God out and called his words foolish and would not follow him.

Ouch, you got me, Tobin. Anyone else have a response BESIDES Tobin?

But we do agree on some things, Tobin. We both agree that, if Joseph was translating the Nephite record, as he says, he would not have known the record without receiving the translation of it. That seems logical.

We both agree that Joseph was not a Nephite. We both agree that, if he translated the Book of Mormon from reformed Egyptian, he would have needed the rock to translate it. Said, differently, we both know that, if his account is true, he needed the magic rock because he didn’t know the language without it. Yes, he did not know the Nephite’s language except as it was revealed to him on the peeping stone, as he alleges. by the way, he didn’t even use the U and T for most of his alleged translation.

You say that “God revealed the translations in terms that Joseph Smith could understand them, which was in the phrases and religious English terms that he best he understood them from the Bible.” Most unlearned farm boys didn’t know KJV that well, did they? I think we both agree, however, that Joseph made many KJV mistakes in his 1830 edition, even if he was familiar with the KJV language.

We both agree that God did not take Joseph Smith and spend years teaching him the Nephite language, alphabet, idioms, and so on in order to translate their language into English.” I think you agree with me that, if he had translated the book, he did it by peering into his hat and reading the words off in English. What more would he need in such case then an ability to read English words that appeared on a stone?

I think we agree that eyewitnesses reported that took his head and put it into a hat and then read lines from the rock until the scribe got it right. It wasn’t based on familiar words in his mind and terms in the Bible he was familiar with. It was given in English that didn’t required Joseph to think or ponder, but ability to read English words that appeared in a hat. Right?

We agree that no one else “saw these words” other than Joseph. We both agree, that if true, these words were revealed only to Joseph. They were allegedly shown to him in English. I suppose God would get the double prepositions of the KJV right. I will concede the words were not in Hebrew, Greek, or Latin.

The words “given” Joseph were not selected from his mind, were they? For example, he did not known that Jerusalem was encompassed by a wall, so that wouldn’t come out of his mind. They were words that anyone speaking English would see with their eyes.

We agree, however, that it would have been simpler for “God to take an afternoon and type out the Book of Mormon and hand it to Joseph Smith and say - go print this”.

I think we agree that his KJV English mistook many things.

You say that Mormon critics turn Joseph Smith into “God’s sock puppet.” But I think we agree that Joseph only read the words that the stone gave him in English. What more did he do than that?

We both agree that, if there is a God who answers prayers, that “if someone were seeking God, they would ask him about this and do as he said.” At least if they were smart. I don’t know if I’m very smart, but I agree with you that that would be a good way to proceed, if there is a God who answers prayers. He just hasn’t answered mine ... yet. (I just can't remember if he answered my prayers before I had my stroke, if you recall my introduction in this forum.)

You speak of "pride and the arrogance of [our] hearts, [that makes us] condemn the things of God.” You warn that when I do such things it “will be returned to you at the last day.” That I will “stand ashamed and condemned because [I] did not seek God out and called his words foolish and would not follow him.”

I don’t recall saying God’s words were foolish. I just want to know they came from him and not made up my men. But I do agree I stand condemned if you turn out to be right and I don’t follow your commandments (as given you by God). I just don’t know if they are commandments from God … yet. Maybe there is hope for me, even if you doubt it.

[_Tobin]

vessr,

There are many if not most criticims of the Book of Mormon that I recognize and agree with. That isn't what I'm pointing out. I find the mistakes understandable and very human. It makes the Book of Mormon endearing to me because of its many quirks.

But at the 10 thousand foot level of looking at this, you need to clearly think about what is being claimed. We are literally talking about someone claiming to have seen God, an Angel, and have a gold book drop in his lap. I don't know about you, but that isn't an everyday (or any day) occurrence in my world. I don't think it is unreasonable to state that is patently absurd. The ONLY reason to believe any of this is if it happens to you. God basically needs to show up and tell you it is true or I'm sorry - it isn't. And I think that is all that Mormonism is asking here.

Now as far as the translation process. I really don't know how it was accomplished exactly because I've never done it myself. I can't imagine it was simply Joseph Smith reading off English words he saw in a rock. Otherwise, as I've said, Joseph Smith was unnecessary and God could have simply typed it all up and handed it to him. I believe it was much more involved than that and have speculated that his understanding of English and concepts were integral to the process. I also believe this was done on purpose and is not a mistake by God. I believe very much that God tests and tries us to see if we will seek him out and discover the truth for ourselves. We have weaknesses and need to recognize the weaknesses of others and understand them. By using Joseph Smith in this way, I'm sure he was well aware of the mistakes that would be made (or the perceived mistakes). The question is - can you see past them or will they encumber you so much that you can not?

And one final point if I may. I've discussed the U&T with thews often on this forum and expressed the view that Joseph Smith used the U&T as his other seer stones. You should be aware that Joseph Smith did not know they were called the U&T at the time and referred to them as simply seer stones or Nephite interpreters. In fact, they were two seer stones that according to others looked like and were shaped like diamonds held in silvery bows and fastened to a breastplate. According to some sources, Joseph Smith had difficulty using the U&T as configured and would at times take the individual seer stones out of the bows. What proportion of the time he used which of the seer stones he possessed is unknown. And before you scoff at peering at seer stones in a hat, you should be aware the U&T were to be used COVERED with a veil. So, if Joseph Smith were peering at individual seer stones taken from the U&T (or one of his others) in a hat - that is actually very consistent with how they were used.

[_vessr]

vessr,

There are many if not most criticims of the Book of Mormon that I recognize and agree with. That isn't what I'm pointing out. I find the mistakes understandable and very human. It makes the Book of Mormon endearing to me because of its many quirks.

But at the 10 thousand foot level of looking at this, you need to clearly think about what is being claimed. We are literally talking about someone claiming to have seen God, an Angel, and have a gold book drop in his lap. I don't know about you, but that isn't an everyday (or any day) occurrence in my world. I don't think it is unreasonable to state that is patently absurd. The ONLY reason to believe any of this is if it happens to you. God basically needs to show up and tell you it is true or I'm sorry - it isn't. And I think that is all that Mormonism is asking here.

Now as far as the translation process. I really don't know how it was accomplished exactly because I've never done it myself. I can't imagine it was simply Joseph Smith reading off English words he saw in a rock. Otherwise, as I've said, Joseph Smith was unnecessary and God could have simply typed it all up and handed it to him. I believe it was much more involved than that and have speculated that his understanding of English and concepts were integral to the process. I also believe this was done on purpose and is not a mistake by God. I believe very much that God tests and tries us to see if we will seek him out and discover the truth for ourselves. We have weaknesses and need to recognize the weaknesses of others and understand them. By using Joseph Smith in this way, I'm sure he was well aware of the mistakes that would be made (or the perceived mistakes). The question is - can you see past them or will they encumber you so much that you can not?

Tobin, you suggest I “need to clearly think about what is being claimed."

I agree.

You say, “We are literally talking about someone claiming to have seen God, an Angel, and have a gold book drop in his lap. I don't know about you, but that isn't an everyday (or any day) occurrence in my world. I don't think it is unreasonable to state that is patently absurd. The ONLY reason to believe any of this is if it happens to you. God basically needs to show up and tell you it is true or I'm sorry - it isn't. And I think that is all that Mormonism is asking here.”

I agree.

You say, “Now as far as the translation process. I really don't know how it was accomplished exactly because I've never done it myself. “

I agree.

You write, “I can't imagine it was simply Joseph Smith reading off English words he saw in a rock. Otherwise, as I've said, Joseph Smith was unnecessary and God could have simply typed it all up and handed it to him. I believe it was much more involved than that and have speculated that his understanding of English and concepts were integral to the process.”

I agree.

You write, “I also believe this was done on purpose and is not a mistake by God.”

I agree. If it was done on purpose by God, it would be no mistake.

You write, “ I believe very much that God tests and tries us to see if we will seek him out and discover the truth for ourselves.”

I’m trying, Tobin. Believe me, I’m trying.

You write, “We have weaknesses and need to recognize the weaknesses of others and understand them.”

I agree.

“The question is - can you see past them [Joseph’s mistakes] or will they encumber you so much that you can not?

I can look past them, if they are unintentional mistakes and not a fraudulent act.

Thanks, Tobin. I think we're on the same page, except that you know things, or claim to know things, that I do not.

[_Tobin]

Thanks, Tobin. I think we're on the same page, except that you know things, or claim to know things, that I do not.

Oh, I've been there. I was an atheist and ex-mormon for over 10 years and was pretty confident of what I knew that was false about Mormonism until the Lord called me to repentance personally. I would encourage you to instead be honest in your inquiry after the truth - seek the Lord diligently, be kind, love and serve others and God will answer you and bless you. You will be a lot better off than I was and will avoid much of the pain I went through. I will pray for you and my greatest hope is that the Lord will visit you and speak the truth to you.

[_vessr]

Thanks, Tobin. I think we're on the same page, except that you know things, or claim to know things, that I do not.

Oh, I've been there. I was an atheist and ex-mormon for over 10 years and was pretty confident of what I knew that was false about Mormonism until the Lord called me to repentance personally. I would encourage you to instead be honest in your inquiry after the truth - seek the Lord diligently, be kind, love and serve others and God will answer you and bless you. You will be a lot better off than I was and will avoid much of the pain I went through. I will pray for you and my greatest hope is that the Lord will visit you and speak the truth to you.

Thanks, Tobin. Yes, if the Lord called me to repentance personally, I would do the same. I am seeking to be honest in my inquiry after the truth. I am seeking the Lord as diligently as I believe I can. I seek to be kind, love and serve others. I would be pleased to have God answer me and bless me.

I may have more pain to go through, as you did, before I'm done with my inquiry. Thank you for your prayers and for your great hope that the Lord will visit and speak the truth to me. I hope I will be open to it. I'm trying to be open to any truth, however it will be revealed to me.

[_Themis]

So we either have Joesph making it up, or we have God giving Joesph a word for word the Book of Mormon. Why does God then borrow from other peoples translation, not his, knowing that this provides evidence against the claim of the Book of Mormon being true? Especially incorrect translations of biblical passages. This seems another dumb and dumber theory.

[_vessr]

So we either have Joesph making it up, or we have God giving Joesph a word for word the Book of Mormon. Why does God then borrow from other peoples translation, not his, knowing that this provides evidence against the claim of the Book of Mormon being true? Especially incorrect translations of biblical passages. This seems another dumb and dumber theory.

I like your reasoning, Themis. It goes along nicely with at point made in another post, to which I just responded, that a loving God wouldn't hide the ball from a lost child (such as me) and torment him with fears of punishment if he doesn't get the answer to his question right.