Evolution Again!

[_Ceeboo]

Ceeboo, perhaps it is possible that birds were the primal creation and that all other life forms
are some deviation from the true image. This would explain their place in the strata of geologic
history. First God, then diatomaceous earth, then Birds and finally the other stuff.

All I can say is that if I evolved, I sure hope I have penguin in my tree!

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Ceeboo]

DrW Speaking To Ceeboo!

Okay, okay. You are right.

Just in case this never happens again, I wanted to see it appear on the thread at least one more time!




Peace,
Ceeboo

[Guest]

Ceeboo, perhaps it is possible that birds were the primal creation and that all other life forms
are some deviation from the true image. This would explain their place in the strata of geologic
history. First God, then diatomaceous earth, then Birds and finally the other stuff.

All I can say is that if I evolved, I sure hope I have penguin in my tree!

Peace,
Ceeboo

Sorry Ceeb,

No penguins in your family tree (among your direct ancestors)- not a single one.

If you want to have a look at a detailed, high resolution Hill Diagram (Circular Tree of Life) of the species found on Earth, including birds and humans, those clever Germans have put together an interactive online tool that is quite good. It can be found at http://itol.embl.de/itol.cgi

Its operation takes a bit of getting used to, but once you figure out how the tools work, you can find pretty much anything. Be warned, the Eukaryota (which include all of the vertebrates - penguins and humans) are only a small fraction of life on Earth. Look for us in pink on the Hill Diagram.

This tool is entirely vector graphics (arbitrarily high resolution) and has all the scaling and rotation controls needed to take you pretty much anywhere you want to go on the Tree of Life.

Hope you will check it out and let us know what you think.

[_Ceeboo]

Peace,
Ceeboo

Okay, okay. You are right.

Just wanted to get this to the top of this page before I call it a night!


Peace and Good Night to all!

Ceeboo

[_honorentheos]

I understand what you are saying BUT, it's not like these birds knew how long the flight was before they departed for Hawaiii

Correct.

The first time they went (I don't know how many there were or how many go now) they HAD to be able to know what it would take (extra fat and V-formation and flight plan and directions)to make it or they would all die.

Not exactly.

Here is a Mormon-related analogy: If you travel around the Wasatch front in Utah, there is a zone up on the benches where many communities have long-standing fruit orchards. Most people assume these orchards exist because the early Mormon settlers knew the best place to plant fruit trees. The reality is, early Mormon settlers planted fruit trees everywhere they settled. But most of the orchards failed. The surviving orchards we see today over a hundred years later survived because they happened to have been planted in the one microclimate along the Wasatch front that favors fruit tree production.

When you see the ones that made it, you are seeing a natural selection success story (with an assist from Mormon Settlers who planted the trees).

It's easy to miss the far more common, but not evident, failures. Or natural selection success stories...in weeding out unfit species in the wrong ecological niche.

Building on this example, it's important to understand it doesn't take every bird to survive the trip. It takes some. The birds who don't have the right traits for the particular trip, die. Just like you said. It's actually part of what makes natural selection work.

The birds who don't take off in the direction of a land mass where they can live... die.

The birds who don't use v-formations to travel longer distances.... die.

The birds who don't have the predisposition to consume more calories and gain weight before the trip...die.

The error is in assuming intentionality. What we see in the result only appears intentional. The facts are, the ones who had the adaptation and the luck to find a suitable land mass for living on passed on their genes while those who didn't have these ....died.

[Guest]

Hey Ren

Hey Ceeboo

I understand what you are saying BUT

Pfft. there is always a 'but'...

it's not like these birds knew how long the flight was before they departed for Hawaiii

You are speaking as if the first group that flew to Hawaii had to intend to fly to Hawaii and no-where else...!
(...instead of preparing / intending to take a long flight 'somewhere south' and then happenning to fly in a 'non-typical' direction.)

Why do you believe this? I think this point is central to the misunderstanding here...
Maybe I'm misreading you?

(I understand that some went other places but that doesn't speak to the ones that do go on the 88 hour trip each year)

DrW stated that bird species have had millions of years to learn efficient migration techniques (flying in formation etc.)

You said in response:
"But they didn't have millions of years to learn to fly that far... if they didn't make it, they drowned...!"

My response:
"They learned to fly that kind of distance - nonstop - over land based routes before any particular group happenned to unintentionally fly within visual sight of Hawaii..."

The first time they went ... they HAD to be able to know what it would take

They needed to be capable of a long continuous flight distance and then happen to fly in Hawaii's direction.

But there would have been survival advantages in being able to fly non-stop on the South Asia / Australasia migration routes - without landing - even when there was something to land on on the way.
If a plover eats all the food it will need to fly to South Asia / Australasia non-stop (while it KNOWS it has food), it cuts out the need to 'gamble' on whether food will be available in any particular place it may be forced to land in on the way to it's final destination.

i.e. it cuts out a potential 'risk' it would have to take.
Natural selection weeds those kinds of 'bad practices' out. Constantly and consistently.

In other words, there was selection pressure to fly Hawaii-scale distances non-stop before any plover got to Hawaii.

...and as far as flying in the direction of Hawaii...

Bird migrations aren't like tightly paved roads! They are trends in a 'general direction', and over countless generations all statistically-possible paths will be explored within the scope of that 'general direction' and within the birds flight capability.

All it takes is a small fortunate group to 'make it' (i.e. get lucky and happen to fly in the right direction to pass within visual distance of Hawaii).

It doesn't matter how many don't make it.
All those many unfortunate groups that fly in the 'wrong' direction don't have long term impact. They don't get to reproduce and influence the next generation - they just die.

It only matters that some fortunate groups do... The groups that happened to fly in the 'right' direction.
It is their legacy you witness when you see a plavor bird in Hawaii.
(Or a kolea bird - as they are known there...)

And that would just set up the very same issues for the next group who was trying for the first time.

Sorry. Not sure what you mean here.
Can you clarify?

Look, I really don't care what someone believes (Natural selection with lots of random mutations, God, Or a 4 leaf clover stuck under your left elbow) THAT IS SOME REALLY INTERESTING AND FASCINATING STUFF THAT BOGGLES THE MIND

Agreed mate! ;)

I don't deny that the kind of evolutionary pathways proposed to have developed can boggle the mind and seem 'beyond belief'. Just because I'm perfectly confident the science is absolutely sound, doesn't mean I can't see just how the big picture can tug against 'common sense'.

The idea that - approx. 13 billion years ago - the entire universe could fit in a space smaller than my back pocket currently occupies isn't exactly 'sensible' either.
Yet all evidence shows its true *shrug* go figure...


Maybe there is at least one thing we can agree on...
The explanations for such an amazing world are bound to be amazing in their own right - regardless of which of us is right / wrong.

Sure - "goddidit" is a lot quicker to type than the paragraphs us 'evolutionists' are churning out!
But as an answer, It's not exactly 'mundane' either...

[_Harold Lee]

I understand what you are saying BUT, it's not like these birds knew how long the flight was before they departed for Hawaiii

Correct.

The first time they went (I don't know how many there were or how many go now) they HAD to be able to know what it would take (extra fat and V-formation and flight plan and directions)to make it or they would all die.

Not exactly.

Here is a Mormon-related analogy: If you travel around the Wasatch front in Utah, there is a zone up on the benches where many communities have long-standing fruit orchards. Most people assume these orchards exist because the early Mormon settlers knew the best place to plant fruit trees. The reality is, early Mormon settlers planted fruit trees everywhere they settled. But most of the orchards failed. The surviving orchards we see today over a hundred years later survived because they happened to have been planted in the one microclimate along the Wasatch front that favors fruit tree production.

When you see the ones that made it, you are seeing a natural selection success story (with an assist from Mormon Settlers who planted the trees).

It's easy to miss the far more common, but not evident, failures. Or natural selection success stories...in weeding out unfit species in the wrong ecological niche.

Building on this example, it's important to understand it doesn't take every bird to survive the trip. It takes some. The birds who don't have the right traits for the particular trip, die. Just like you said. It's actually part of what makes natural selection work.

The birds who don't take off in the direction of a land mass where they can live... die.

The birds who don't use v-formations to travel longer distances.... die.

The birds who don't have the predisposition to consume more calories and gain weight before the trip...die.

The error is in assuming intentionality. What we see in the result only appears intentional. The facts are, the ones who had the adaptation and the luck to find a suitable land mass for living on passed on their genes while those who didn't have these ....died.

It's unfortunate but death of a population (extinction you might say if general) in evolution is just as critical as life. If less adapted species aren't dying out they're not making room for change or adaptation that contributes improvement. If those species didn't die out they'd be contributing their less adapted genes with as much frequency as the more adapted, and thus no changes.

It's funny because death is what makes new, better life possible. We kind of do it as humans too, hoping our children have a better life than we did (and for the most part do). If we never died out we'd never make room for them to grow to their potential.

So almost nothing that you see today "evolved" from something else alive today. They shared a common ancestors. The more closely related, the sooner the splits on the evolutionary chain occured. They're brothers or sisters. But the circle of life usually needs to claim every species to make room for the next. They'll be different, for better or worse (only time will tell) but predation and limited resources will weed out with greater frequency those not any better off than their peers or their parents.

The only option that would save those birds, is if a few lucky birds mutated another way to survive and spread it around the gene pool of the population (or benefited from a lesser known epigenetic mechanism). Maybe the ones that would have died found an archipelago like Azores or any number of thousands of islands with unique bird life, islands out in the middle of nowhere where they could settle in temperate climates without needing to migrate. Maybe it caused a bottleneck effect among those who couldn't follow magnetic routes, and very quickly the populations adapted thicker and thicker feathers. Or maybe, as happened 99% of the time they actually went extinct (and thus all birds of that species now have the ability to follow magnetic migration patterns instead of just the mutation of a few). You can rest assured that the extinction of one species is the opportunity of others to flourish.

Here's a question- we know birds go towards the equator for the winter and back when it's spring. But do they return to their same general location? Or do they just spread out anywhere the temperature seems right?

[_Res Ipsa]

In one of the articles I read today, it said that the migration route for each individual bird seemed to be "set" the first time it was flown. So, no matter where you go, there you are.

[_DrW]

<Snip>
The only option that would save those birds, is if a few lucky birds mutated another way to survive and spread it around the gene pool of the population (or benefited from a lesser known epigenetic mechanism).
<Snip>

Harold,

As long as the evolutionists have the kind and undivided attention of the board's Chief Creationist in Charge, and for the benefit of others who are following the thread and may not be aware of the importance of epigenetics in adaptation, perhaps you could provide an explanation and a relevant example or two here, since you have obviously been thinking about this.

Thanks.

[_Bazooka]

I understand what you are saying BUT, it's not like these birds knew how long the flight was before they departed for Hawaiii (I understand that some went other places but that doesn't speak to the ones that do go on the 88 hour trip each year)

The first time they went (I don't know how many there were or how many go now) they HAD to be able to know what it would take (extra fat and V-formation and flight plan and directions)to make it or they would all die.
And that would just set up the very same issues for the next group who was trying for the first time.

Look, I really don't care what someone believes (Natural selection with lots of random mutations, God, Or a 4 leaf clover stuck under your left elbow) THAT IS SOME REALLY INTERESTING AND FASCINATING STUFF THAT BOGGLES THE MIND!!!

(My mind anyway!)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo, when the ancestors of the Golden Plover first starting flying perhaps Alaska and Hawaii were a lot closer together?
As the continents drifted apart, Hawaii gradually got further away.

Their first flight between the two points may have happened millions of years ago when the separation was three and a half feet.