94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Yes, if the US is Ok in a global economy with a GDP to debt ratio of about 1:1, then clearly it's no problem for it to be 2.5:1. Hell, let's make it 7:1. After all, if one level of debt is no problem, then no levels of debt are a problem.


And yet, Japan's debt is a whopping 229% of GDP. Instead of inflation we now see deflation.

By the time we reach $50 trillion in debt our GDP will likely be much higher, bringing that ratio down further from the 2.5:1 you mentioned. I just don't see a lot of merit behind these doomsday predictions. I've been hearing it year after year since forever it seems. It sounds more like political posturing than anything else, mostly because the Right never said a word about it as debt skyrocketed while a Republican was President. Put a Democrat in office and suddenly the debt is going to cause hyperinflation and we're all going to be speaking Chinese soon.
_ajax18
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _ajax18 »

And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

ajax18 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91LDEMU97Bs


I didn't watch this because you didn't offer any contextual summary.

Can you explain why running a surplus would be good for the dollar and for the global economy?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:
Yes, if the US is Ok in a global economy with a GDP to debt ratio of about 1:1, then clearly it's no problem for it to be 2.5:1. Hell, let's make it 7:1. After all, if one level of debt is no problem, then no levels of debt are a problem.


And yet, Japan's debt is a whopping 229% of GDP. Instead of inflation we now see deflation.

By the time we reach $50 trillion in debt our GDP will likely be much higher, bringing that ratio down further from the 2.5:1 you mentioned. I just don't see a lot of merit behind these doomsday predictions. I've been hearing it year after year since forever it seems. It sounds more like political posturing than anything else, mostly because the Right never said a word about it as debt skyrocketed while a Republican was President. Put a Democrat in office and suddenly the debt is going to cause hyperinflation and we're all going to be speaking Chinese soon.


Japan hasn't made a deep effort to reduce its debt through increasing currency supply or monetizing their debt, so you wouldn't expect there to be inflation. So we need to reform your question. Why is it that Japan is able to continue to issue bonds at acceptable interest rates while sustaining such a high debt? Isn't this like giving a guy who makes 25k a year a 400k loan? Why aren't investors pulling out or trying to increase the price of loans to off-set risk? That's a reasonable question.

Since you looked this up somewhere, you probably also saw that Japan is a unique outlier both in terms of the size of its debt and in its ability for that debt not to cripple them. To understand why they are able to maintain that debt ratio for the time being, which should've struck you as a fact in want of explanation, the standard answer is that a huge % of it is an accounting mirage with government agencies owing each other. Further still, within the public debt an atypically large % is owned by citizen small investors that tend not to be as demanding of interest. This is what is allowing them to maintain credit despite debt levels that have sunk other countries. And even after you take that into account, they're still on the precipice of having a very serious problem. Their high debt was incurred through a perpetual cycle of stimulus spending and recession/anemic growth following their financial collapse. Because of population issues, they're going to have a tough time growing out of their debt ratio. If they cannot, it is going to force them either to significantly increase taxes - and badly hurt their economy - or explore loose monetary policy and badly hurt their economy through inflation. Or they could just default . (They could also radically cut services while increasing taxes a little, but that option probably is not politically tenable.)

Regarding your comment on partisan politics, it does not matter one wit if Republicans or Democrats are hypocritical on fiscal responsibility. The reality isn't determined by who is in charge. I distinctly recall criticizing the Bush administration for being irresponsible with the budget surplus it was handed only to be rebuffed by some poster named Kevin Graham who was a huge fan of that administration. If the accusation is that I'm not consistent on the issue, that's obviously untrue. If the accusation is that partisan hacks are - yep - but that has nothing to do with whether it is a actually a problem.

"The right" did complain about Bush's government spending in his lame duck session a fair amount. In fact, discontent with it formed the political turmoil in the ranks that was successfully astroturfed into what evolved into the Tea Party. "The Right" if it also includes ideological groups have continued to make this an issue through both Republican and Democrat administrations. You'll have no problem finding CATO institute pieces on the issue from the Bush era.
_EAllusion
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _EAllusion »

Regarding your views Kevin, it's really a mystery. If I were to take what you've said in recent years at face value, you don't believe that government debt - at any level - is a fundamental problem. By implication, you think the macroeconomic equivalent of a perpetual motion machine exists and this fact is either missed or actively suppressed by scientists and the natural beneficiaries of such a thing.

If I'm trying to be fair and realistic, I think you are heavily reliant on partisan media to consume information. You hear a lot of hyperbole and bluster come from rightwing sources - which they do on every single subject - and this leads you to conclude they're a bunch of Chicken Littles and there must be no problem to worry about. After all, they said the sky is falling and it hasn't. At the same time, you have confirmation bias problem up the wazoo when it comes to sources you consider friendly, and have come to conflate how leftwing sources want Greece, Portugal, etc. to respond to its debt problem with their debt being a problem in the first place.

My advise to you is to try and sort through partisan analysis to find the range of qualified debate on the subject. American debt is a problem, we're not on a sustainable trajectory, and problematic levels are far lower than you think. The good news is that there is still plenty of room to do something about it. The bad news is doing something about it that is reasonable and good for the general welfare doesn't seem possible in our current political climate.
_honorentheos
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _honorentheos »

ajax18 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91LDEMU97Bs

Does posting a silly video that might appeal to those who have the same biases you do mean you've given up trying to defend your beliefs?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_ajax18
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _ajax18 »

I didn't watch this because you didn't offer any contextual summary.


It was in reference to this point made by EAllusion.

Yes, if the US is Ok in a global economy with a GDP to debt ratio of about 1:1, then clearly it's no problem for it to be 2.5:1. Hell, let's make it 7:1. After all, if one level of debt is no problem, then no levels of debt are a problem.


Now watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91LDEMU97Bs
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_honorentheos
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _honorentheos »

ajax18 wrote:
I didn't watch this because you didn't offer any contextual summary.


It was in reference to this point made by EAllusion.

Yes, if the US is Ok in a global economy with a GDP to debt ratio of about 1:1, then clearly it's no problem for it to be 2.5:1. Hell, let's make it 7:1. After all, if one level of debt is no problem, then no levels of debt are a problem.


Now watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91LDEMU97Bs

Again, what's your position here? EA was addressing Kevin. If you are jumping from your own views to criticizing Kevin's, umm, ok. But you're not exactly in a better position than Kevin with your views about debt and government, either. There have a been plenty of questions posed to you that you answered with a question rather than an answer. I don't believe you've answered a question yet with actual supporting evidence. You just keep trying to see if anyone will bite at your naïve comparisons of government fiscal policy and household budgeting.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_ajax18
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _ajax18 »

Does posting a silly video that might appeal to those who have the same biases you do mean you've given up trying to defend your beliefs?


I never expected to change the minds of people on this board much. It seems like most of them are content to just let the debt grow and grow. I don't think the government will ever pay it off. We'll always be in debt as a nation.

I believe that every able man should work. If you don't agree, then there's nothing I can really say to defend that. It's just a difference in what we believe to be right and wrong.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_honorentheos
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Re: 94,044,000 Americans Not in the Labor Force

Post by _honorentheos »

ajax18 wrote:
Does posting a silly video that might appeal to those who have the same biases you do mean you've given up trying to defend your beliefs?


I never expected to change the minds of people on this board much. It seems like most of them are content to just let the debt grow and grow. I don't think the government will ever pay it off. We'll always be in debt as a nation.

I believe that every able man should work. If you don't agree, then there's nothing I can really say to defend that. It's just a difference in what we believe to be right and wrong.

The question is why you believe what you do, and is it really correct? Or can it be demonstrated why those who think differently than you are incorrect?

We've had pretty basic but solid points regarding why the belief the government should have access to credit and use it as part of it's fiscal policy in this thread. There have been periods in our history when the debt was paid off and the result was predicable: Financial problems and panics. If you want to make a case for greater fiscal responsibility, you'll find allies here. I'd probably be one depending on what we're talking about. Especially if it includes managing military spending. If you want to continue to compare the US Government to your household budget, then it isn't just a matter of differing opinions.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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