No Trump defenders left ...?

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_subgenius
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _subgenius »

Chap wrote:...(snip)...Such decisions ought not to be made simply by reacting to the degree of public outcry ...(snip)....

interesting assumption, but it merits a bit of an explanation. As "public servants" should they not be swayed by a "degree of public outcry"? or is your support for a popular vote mob rule majority opinion not applicable to law enforcement?

I mean, is public outcry tantamount to a 911 call, whereas "long run" and "short run" are rather post-mortem issues....while "harm" (whatever abstract you intend by using that term) is certainly assessed (quickly)...i am not sure that 911 dispatchers make budget decisions....
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Maxine Waters wrote:I didn't know much about Trump when he toyed with running for President before. Now I only wish he had run and won sooner. We'll never have a better president again.


He's in office less than 100 days and you're ready to judge him as successful? I'd like to see a list of his accomplishments and successes.
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_Brackite
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Brackite »

Even as a presidential candidate he put a fear into illegal immigrants that has greatly reduced the rate at which they're invading the country before any concrete for the wall was even poured.


It's because of people like you getting back into power that we need the wall to be built.


A Huge Border Wall would likely cause serious Environmental damage. Link
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Chap
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Chap »

Chap wrote:Such decisions ought not to be made simply by reacting to the degree of public outcry at any given moment, but by dispassionately and carefully weighing the degree of harm caused, and the costs of reducing that harm, relative to other possible routes for harm reduction. That's unexciting and sometimes less than satisfying, but it gets the most done in the long run.


subgenius wrote: interesting assumption, but it merits a bit of an explanation. As "public servants" should they not be swayed by a "degree of public outcry"? or is your support for a<snip> majority opinion not applicable to law enforcement?


A tried and tested method of making decisions in mature democracies has been by electing representatives (not delegates) who are charged with taking decisions on national issues after a degree of discussion and evaluation that is simply not possible at the scale of the whole population. If you don't like the results, you get to vote them out the next time they are up for election. But during their term they have greater responsibilities, and greater discretion, than simply counting the number of tweets they get for and against a particular course of action.

Try reading this for a classic exposition of that view of what representative government is about:

Edmund Burke, Speech to the Electors of Bristol, 1774:

... I am sorry I cannot conclude, without saying a word on a topick touched upon by my worthy Colleague.1 I wish that topick had been passed by; at a time when I have so little leisure to discuss it. But since he has thought proper to throw it out, I owe you a clear explanation of my poor sentiments on that subject.

He tells you, that “the topick of Instructions2 has occasioned much altercation and uneasiness in this City”; and he expresses himself (if I understand him rightly) in favour of the coercive authority of such instructions.

Certainly, Gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a Representative, to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion high respect; their business unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and, above all, ever, and [[11]] in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But, his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgement, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you; to any man, or to any sett of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the Law and the Constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your Representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgement; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
My worthy Colleague says, his Will ought to be subservient to yours. If that be all, the thing is innocent. If Government were a matter of Will upon any side, yours, without question, ought to be superior. But Government and Legislation are matters of reason and judgement, and not of inclination; and, what sort of reason is that, in which the determination precedes the discussion; in which one sett of men deliberate, and another decide; and where those who form the conclusion are perhaps three hundred miles distant from those who hear the arguments?

To deliver an opinion, is the right of all men; that of Constituents is a weighty and respectable opinion, which a Representative ought always to rejoice to hear; and which he ought always most seriously to consider. But authoritative instructions; Mandates issued, which the Member is bound blindly and implicitly to obey, to vote, and to argue for, though contrary to the clearest conviction of his judgement and conscience; these are things utterly unknown to the laws of this land, and which arise from a fundamental Mistake of the whole order and tenour of our Constitution.
Parliament is not a Congress of Ambassadors from different and hostile interests; which interests each must maintain, as an Agent and Advocate, against other Agents and Advocates; but Parliament is a deliberative Assembly of one Nation, with one Interest, that of the whole; where, not local Purposes, not local Prejudices ought to guide, but the general [[12]] Good, resulting from the general Reason of the whole. You chuse a Member indeed; but when you have chosen him, he is not Member of Bristol, but he is a Member of Parliament. If the local Constituent should have an Interest, or should form an hasty Opinion, evidently opposite to the real good of the rest of the Community, the Member for that place ought to be as far, as any other, from any endeavour to give it Effect. I beg pardon for saying so much on this subject. I have been unwillingly drawn into it; but I shall ever use a respectful frankness of communication with you. Your faithful friend, your devoted servant, I shall be to the end of my life: A flatterer you do not wish for. On this point of instructions, however, I think it scarcely possible, we ever can have any sort of difference. Perhaps I may give you too much, rather than too little trouble.

From the first hour I was encouraged to court your favour to this happy day of obtaining it, I have never promised you any thing, but humble and persevering endeavours to do my duty. The weight of that duty, I confess, makes me tremble; and whoever well considers what it is, of all things in the world will fly from what has the least likeness to a positive and precipitate engagement. To be a good Member of Parliament, is, let me tell you, no easy task; especially at this time, when there is so strong a disposition to run into the perilous extremes of servile compliance, or wild popularity. To unite circumspection with vigour, is absolutely necessary; but it is extremely difficult. We are now Members for a rich commercial City; this City, however, is but a part of a rich commercial Nation, the Interests of which are various, multiform, and intricate. We are Members for that great Nation, which however is itself but part of a great Empire, extended by our Virtue and our Fortune to the farthest limits of the East and of the West. All these wide-spread Interests must be considered; must be compared; must be reconciled if possible. We are Members for a free Country; and surely we all know, that the machine [[13]] of a free Constitution is no simple thing; but as intricate and as delicate, as it is valuable. We are Members in a great and ancient Monarchy; and we must preserve religiously, the true legal rights of the Sovereign, which form the Key-stone that binds together the noble and well-constructed Arch of our Empire and our Constitution. A Constitution made up of balanced Powers must ever be a critical thing. As such I mean to touch that part of it which comes within my reach. I know my Inability, and I wish for support from every Quarter. In particular I shall aim at the friendship, and shall cultivate the best Correspondence, of the worthy Colleague you have given me.

I trouble you no farther than once more to thank you all; you, Gentlemen, for your Favours; the Candidates for their temperate and polite behaviour; and the Sheriffs, for a Conduct which may give a Model for all who are in public Stations.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Given Trump’s budget proposal to add 20 JD lawyers to help take the land of Americans, I wonder if the Bundy brigade will show up along the border to support land owners?
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Kevin Graham
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Maxine Waters wrote:
I think enforcement aggressiveness and penalties should be proportionate to the risks of the illegal activity.


You think illegal immigration is a victimless crime and therefore we shouldn't enforce the law, at least not stringently enough to have any use to the taxpayer. It's because of people like you getting back into power that we need the wall to be built.

Once illegal immigrants make their way onto US soil, you or Kevin will find one way or another to let them or their children stay and provide them with means tested taxpayer funded welfare benefits. Keep it up and we will defeat you once again in 2020.



By 2020 the bulk of your voters (old white racist) will be dead, and the country will be the better for it. You keep repeating idiotic and well refuted talking points because you're only interested in feel good white supremacy platitudes.
_Maxine Waters
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Maxine Waters »

He's in office less than 100 days and you're ready to judge him as successful? I'd like to see a list of his accomplishments and successes.


He has nearly enforced the border better than GWB ever did with his rhetoric on the campaign trail alone.
“There were mothers who took this [Rodney King LA riots] as an opportunity to take some milk, to take some bread, to take some shoes ... They are not crooks.”

This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Maxine Waters wrote:
He's in office less than 100 days and you're ready to judge him as successful? I'd like to see a list of his accomplishments and successes.


He has nearly enforced the border better than GWB ever did with his rhetoric on the campaign trail alone.


That's it?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_subgenius
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _subgenius »

Jersey Girl wrote:
He's in office less than 100 days and you're ready to judge him as successful? I'd like to see a list of his accomplishments and successes.

ahh, here is a short list - hope it helps!


first accomplishment - kept Hillary Clinton from being elected (huuuge)
employment numbers rose for January and February
coal mines opened for 68,000 employees
Bulk of cabinet members have already been approved, despite Democrat posturing
withdrew from TPP
reinstated the Mexico City policy (against foreign abortion company funding)
Keystone pipeline
ended "catch/release" immigration policy
ended sanctuary city funding
ended the ridiculous transgender bathroom order (leaves it up to individual States)
ordered agencies that for every 1 new regulation proposed 2 regulations must be eliminated
Nominated Supreme Court judge
reduced debt by $100B
has undermined ACA
budget proposal
travel ban
Philadelphia Fed Index highest since 1984
small/med business confidence at 12 year high (Reuters)
stock market (Dow) has been consistently rising
Samsung is coming back to US with 500 jobs and $300m
Exxon moving jobs back
Fiat investing $1B
Hasbro bringing Play-Doh manuf back to US
Illegal immigration from Mexico down 40% in first month
disrupted that rather stagnant nature of "status quo" politics inside the beltway
has forced the vast majority of Liberals to actually research and learn about their own country, their own Constitution, their own history.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Kevin Graham
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Re: No Trump defenders left ...?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

subgenius wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
He's in office less than 100 days and you're ready to judge him as successful? I'd like to see a list of his accomplishments and successes.

ahh, here is a short list - hope it helps!


first accomplishment - kept Hillary Clinton from being elected (huuuge)
employment numbers rose for January and February
coal mines opened for 68,000 employees
Bulk of cabinet members have already been approved, despite Democrat posturing
withdrew from TPP
reinstated the Mexico City policy (against foreign abortion company funding)
Keystone pipeline
ended "catch/release" immigration policy
ended sanctuary city funding
ended the ridiculous transgender bathroom order (leaves it up to individual States)
ordered agencies that for every 1 new regulation proposed 2 regulations must be eliminated
Nominated Supreme Court judge
reduced debt by $100B
has undermined ACA
budget proposal
travel ban
Philadelphia Fed Index highest since 1984
small/med business confidence at 12 year high (Reuters)
stock market (Dow) has been consistently rising
Samsung is coming back to US with 500 jobs and $300m
Exxon moving jobs back
Fiat investing $1B
Hasbro bringing Play-Doh manuf back to US
Illegal immigration from Mexico down 40% in first month
disrupted that rather stagnant nature of "status quo" politics inside the beltway
has forced the vast majority of Liberals to actually research and learn about their own country, their own Constitution, their own history.


That sure is a long list of nothing, but I love how you idiots attribute jobs to Trump which he had nothing to do with. Correlation doesn't equal causation, as Republicans loved to say as hundreds of thousands of jobs were created in more than a dozen months under Obama.
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