Was J Smith martyred, murdered or removed from his place?

[_honorentheos]

There is no requirement in martyrdom that precludes an attempt at self defense.

An attempt at self-defence that includes using a lethal weapon on others? In Mormonism, maybe not.

But in all other Christian churches, whether they have an explicit definition of martyrdom or not, you will find that all the recognised martyrs made no attempt to harm those who killed them. You will not succeed in finding a counter-example, I think.

Mormonism is, once more, out there on its own. Why pretend otherwise?

Because it's not true. Pope Urban II made reference to martyrdom as part of the call to the crusades and the reference to fallen Christian knights as being martyrs is historically documented. Martin Luther wasn't a peace-monger, telling his princely benefactors, "Thus, anyone who is killed fighting on the side of authority may be a true martyr in God's eyes."

Christianity has plenty of blood on it's hands paid for by promising glory to those willing to shed it and let theirs be shed.

[_huckelberry]

I imagine most wouldn't have cared if he'd just been marrying other consenting adult females (who weren't already married to other men).

In 19th Century America? I think that alone would have gotten him drawn and quartered.

Well there were other polygamous groups in the United states. Like alot of Mormon things polygamy was not a Mormon invention. Jacob Cochran would be an example. (with some possible influence on Mormonism) he did run into legal trouble but was not killed. harldly drawn and quartered. There was an Oneida group as well with spiritual wives. }

Oh by the way I tip my hat to a real Mormon on this board. Knows the importance of polygamy and realizes that Adam God is standard Mormon theology though now the names are changed to protect the innocent.

[_huckelberry]

Was John Brown a martyr?

Despite some general expectations it may be that a group chooses its own martyrs from those who died and whose death gives inspiration to their cause and belief. That does not mean all people outside of a cause will view the same person as a martyr. However it does little good to tell others that the person they hold as a martyr does not qualify.

How about Stonewall Jackson?

[_Chap]

Pope Urban II made reference to martyrdom as part of the call to the crusades ...

You may be quite right - I am not an expert in the crusades. But let's look at the evidence.

Here are five accounts of Urban's speech at the Council of Clermont (November 1095) where he preached the crusade.

http://www1.cbn.com/spirituallife/calli ... st-crusade

They are so different that the wording is obviously (at best) the creation of people who recalled what Urban said in general terms and filled in the rest (the minutes of the council are lost). Several sources refer to the remission of sins as a reward for taking part in the Crusade (that was not unknown as a reward for pilgrimage); only one makes a reference to 'wars which contain the glorious reward of martyrdom'.

The actual letter of Urban, which follows those sources, says nothing about martyrdom:

Letter of Instruction to the Crusaders, December 1095

Urban, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all the faithful, both princes and subjects, waiting in Flanders; greeting, apostolic grace, and blessing.

Your brotherhood, we believe, has long since learned from many accounts that a barbaric fury has deplorably afflicted an laid waste the churches of God in the regions of the Orient. More than this, blasphemous to say, it has even grasped in intolerabe servitude its churches and the Holy City of Christ, glorified by His passion and resurrection. Grieving with pious concern at this calamity, we visited the regions of Gaul and devoted ourselves largely to urging the princes of the land and their subjects to free the churches of the East. We solemnly enjoined upon them at the council of Auvergne (the accomplishment of) such an undertaking, as a preparation for the remission of all their sins. And we have constituted our most beloved son, Adhemar, Bishop of Puy, leader of this expedition and undertaking in our stead, so that those who, perchance, may wish to undertake this journey should comply With his commands, as if they were our own, and submit fully to his loosings or bindings, as far as shall seem to belong to such an office. If, moreover, there are any of your people whom God has inspired to this vow, let them know that he (Adhemar) will set out with the aid of God on the day of the Assumption of the Blessed Mary, and that they can then attach themselves to his following.

... the reference to fallen Christian knights as being martyrs is historically documented.

Can you document a specific example of a person who died in battle, whether as a crusader or otherwise, being officially recognised as a martyr by the Catholic church?

(For the avoidance of doubt: Mormons are free to call Smith a martyr if they wish. The word is not, after all, a trade mark. But it seems odd that they are so anxious to claim, in the face of the evidence of both practice and doctrinal definition, that they are doing nothing that differs from the practice of the major traditions of historic Christianity. They seem to want to have their cake and eat it.)

[_Rosebud]

I think through things using the Socratic method and I like to hit subjects sideways because most of the straight-on answers are readily found.

My Q: Why is this important?

My answer: People care in 2017 because the way they define Joseph's death reflects on their personal beliefs, self-identities and status within their communities.

My Q: Why are there so many different ways to define the same event?

My answer: Becaise there are so many different groups and beliefs people can self-identify through membership in.

My Q: Besides group membership and self-identity, why do people care about this at all in 2017?

My answer: People are naturally attracted to charismatic leaders and hold on to them emotionally as if they're somehow larger than life. Indifference towards charisma and leadership is difficult.

My Q: Why is indifference towards charisma and leadership difficult?

My answer: Not caring requires an individual reach a high level of personal emotional, physical and intellectual independence. Few ever achieve that so they think almost obsessively about the men who take on charismatic hero status.

My Q: Have there been any/many charismatic heroes that were worth obsessing over?

My answer: Not unless you respect self-centeredness. Most of the valuable, truly heroic deeds have been done by those who kept quiet about them. Such heroes are much more worthy of praise and adulation except that they won't accept the praise and it will probably difficult to find them.

My Q: If you actually found one of these true heroes and tried to praise them, what would likely happen?

My answer: They'd probably invite you in for a cup of tea and tell you that you are the true hero of your own life as no one else can really take that status.

------

My answer to the OP: Political Assassination

Why is this my answer: It is an objective descriptor of human collective self-preservation behavior.

[_honorentheos]

Pope Urban II made reference to martyrdom as part of the call to the crusades ...

You may be quite right - I am not an expert in the crusades. But let's look at the evidence.

Here are five accounts of Urban's speech at the Council of Clermont (November 1095) where he preached the crusade.

http://www1.cbn.com/spirituallife/calli ... st-crusade

They are so different that the wording is obviously (at best) the creation of people who recalled what Urban said in general terms and filled in the rest (the minutes of the council are lost). Several sources refer to the remission of sins as a reward for taking part in the Crusade (that was not unknown as a reward for pilgrimage); only one makes a reference to 'wars which contain the glorious reward of martyrdom'.

While there is variety in the wording, what is clear is that contemporary sources are not shy of the idea that violence carried out in war in the name of God with the blessing of the holy church has not just divine sanction, but would result in special status and reward. The idea that self sacrifice in battle for God makes one a martyr for Christ is very much part of hte propoganda of the crusades.

Speaking of -

Can you document a specific example of a person who died in battle, whether as a crusader or otherwise, being officially recognised as a martyr by the Catholic church?

I could, and you could easily find them on the net just as easily as you searched out the description of Urban's speech or his letter. But I've already provided a quote from Luther which met the conditions to nullify your argument so the point has already been made.

Perhaps we can agree that a reasonable person ought to recognize there is something basically human at work. Even in our more secular age, the fallen in our modern wars are promoted to secular martyrdom and glorified as heros, defenders of national virtue and honor.

For the avoidance of doubt: Mormons are free to call Smith a martyr if they wish. The word is not, after all, a trade mark. But it seems odd that they are so anxious to claim, in the face of the evidence of both practice and doctrinal definition, that they are doing nothing that differs from the practice of the major traditions of historic Christianity. They seem to want to have their cake and eat it.)

For the record, the differences are those of time and distance, not proclivity and purity of ideal. Whatever modern Christian practice and doctrine may be, it wasn't always so.

[_mcjathan]

What religious beliefs of Mormons require they use secular authority to violate others constitutional rights of freedom of the press?

If you believe that is why he was killed you might want to revisit the books.
That might have been the reason he was arrested (kind of like Al Capone and the taxes), but the people storming Carthage Jail weren't fighting for freedom of the press.

Joseph was killed for the doctrines he preached, (and for those he preached privately as well).
That is the very textbook definition of martyred.

Well.... sort of. Joseph wasn't preaching that everyone should do their home teaching and deliver freshly backed bread to each other. He wasn't preaching that we should hold hands and sing kumbaya. He was teaching stuff that was pretty self-serving and self-aggrandizing. You know, like he was king of the world and that god wanted him to ____ everything in sight.

[_Tator]

Well you have this character Joe Smith riding a horse around in a general's suit commanding a small army of Danites behaving like MS13 in your town, what would people think?

And he is running for president of the US and confronting the state government.

This character destroys a printing press and is involved in banking scandals and cheating people on land deals.

He runs his house like a house of prostitution as viewed through the eyes of the outsiders.

I am sure there were thousands of other actions and rumors surrounding all these events, I would not want this in my town, would anyone?

[_Chap]

Pope Urban II made reference to martyrdom as part of the call to the crusades ...

You may be quite right - I am not an expert in the crusades. But let's look at the evidence.

Here are five accounts of Urban's speech at the Council of Clermont (November 1095) where he preached the crusade.

http://www1.cbn.com/spirituallife/calli ... st-crusade

They are so different that the wording is obviously (at best) the creation of people who recalled what Urban said in general terms and filled in the rest (the minutes of the council are lost). Several sources refer to the remission of sins as a reward for taking part in the Crusade (that was not unknown as a reward for pilgrimage); only one makes a reference to 'wars which contain the glorious reward of martyrdom'.

The actual letter of Urban, which follows those sources, says nothing about martyrdom:

Letter of Instruction to the Crusaders, December 1095

Urban, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all the faithful, both princes and subjects, waiting in Flanders; greeting, apostolic grace, and blessing.

Your brotherhood, we believe, has long since learned from many accounts that a barbaric fury has deplorably afflicted an laid waste the churches of God in the regions of the Orient. More than this, blasphemous to say, it has even grasped in intolerabe servitude its churches and the Holy City of Christ, glorified by His passion and resurrection. Grieving with pious concern at this calamity, we visited the regions of Gaul and devoted ourselves largely to urging the princes of the land and their subjects to free the churches of the East. We solemnly enjoined upon them at the council of Auvergne (the accomplishment of) such an undertaking, as a preparation for the remission of all their sins. And we have constituted our most beloved son, Adhemar, Bishop of Puy, leader of this expedition and undertaking in our stead, so that those who, perchance, may wish to undertake this journey should comply With his commands, as if they were our own, and submit fully to his loosings or bindings, as far as shall seem to belong to such an office. If, moreover, there are any of your people whom God has inspired to this vow, let them know that he (Adhemar) will set out with the aid of God on the day of the Assumption of the Blessed Mary, and that they can then attach themselves to his following.

While there is variety in the wording, what is clear is that contemporary sources are not shy of the idea that violence carried out in war in the name of God with the blessing of the holy church has not just divine sanction, but would result in special status and reward.

Yes. But the status of 'martyr' is a very different matter.

The idea that self sacrifice in battle for God makes one a martyr for Christ is very much part of hte propoganda of the crusades.

But you can't be bothered to cite any evidence ... I am sorry to trouble you with such a disrespectful observation, but mere assertion is not a very impressive mode of argument, is it?

Can you document a specific example of a person who died in battle, whether as a crusader or otherwise, being officially recognised as a martyr by the Catholic church?

I could, and you could easily find them on the net just as easily as you searched out the description of Urban's speech or his letter.

See above. The 'do my research for me' move is sometimes found on this board, but you are the one who claims that the Catholic church recognised as martyrs people who violently resisted those who killed them, not me. Till you come up with a specific example or two, your case looks weak.

Here to help you is a list of martyr saints. Can you find one there who was killed after discharging a lethal projectile weapon at his or her attackers?

http://www.catholic.org/saints/martyr.php

To repeat: Mormons and anybody else are free to call anybody a martyr. The word is free to all. The word is widely used in colloquial speech in all sorts of ways.

But what Mormons can't do is to call Joseph Smith a martyr, and then deny that his use of deadly force against his attackers sets the Mormon sense of the word apart from the sense that it has historically borne in the terminology of all other historically organised Christian churches, who have for many centuries used the term to refer to their honored dead, who were slain for their faith and died unresisting.

As to how Lutherans view martyrdom, you might find it interesting to read an account of the first martyrs for Lutheranism, Johann van Esschen and Henrik Vos, here:

http://wmltblog.org/2013/08/the-ilc-rem ... n-martyrs/

They died unresisting, and did no harm to their killers. They were followed by others, who died similarly, and whose deaths are still commemorated by Lutherans.

Luther wrote a hymn about them, which included this verse (in not very good English translation):

8 Two huge great fires they kindled then,
The boys they carried to them;
Great wonder seized on every man,
For with contempt they view them.
To all with joy they yielded quite,
With singing and God-praising;
The sophs had little appetite
For these new things so dazing.
Which God was thus revealing.

[_Johannes]

To be fair, King Charles the Martyr is venerated as a saint in the Church of England, and he died after vigorously prosecuting a civil war against his executioners.

The story of devotion to King Charles is quite an interesting one, actually.