Apologists Harassing Critics

[Guest]

Right here on this thread is another kind of derail from DrW... "It's like Republican senators...Trump...as radical, ignorant, and destructive as he is." LOL. How, clever.

WD,

It appears that you did not read, or at least understand, the post about which you are bitching.

The post simply suggested, as Kish has upthread, that leaving the board until MG behaves himself would be counterproductive. The resignations of Flake and Corker from the US Senate, both facts, were used as an illustration of why leaving the board would not be helpful.

As to Steve Bannon being radical, ignorant and disruptive, I again simply stated facts not in dispute within the White House. Why do you think White House Chief of Staff John Kelly had Bannon fired?

My post on this thread to which you are referring did not even mention Donald Trump. Perhaps you should try reading things over for comprehension before you make charges of derailments or other comments indicating you have not read or understood the post at issue.

[_Res Ipsa]

Jersey Girl, if you’ll show me where I said that Kish was unclear, I’ll be happy to apologize to him. Otherwise, please don’t misconstrue my words in order to accuse me of misconstruing someone else’s.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl, if you’ll show me where I said that Kish was unclear, I’ll be happy to apologize to him. Otherwise, please don’t misconstrue my words in order to accuse me of misconstruing someone else’s.

Did I misunderstand? Apologies.

[_Dr. Shades]

In this thread within the Spirit Paradise Forum, I had the following to say. I re-post it here because A) more people read this forum, and B) I think it's relevant to this thread:

-----[BEGIN]-----

It looks like people are waiting for me to chime in. So I will. Forgive me if it's taken a while, but I wanted to thoroughly read every post in every relevant thread to prevent myself from making any rash decisions.

To start off, EAllusion has captured all of my feelings on this matter perfectly. It's uncanny; it's like we're sharing a hive mind or something. If you've read his posts on this matter, then you've read mine. Even so, I thought this part was especially noteworthy:

There is a blurry line between trolling to derail and just saying stupidly reasoned things that a crowd doesn't like to hear that can be difficult to navigate.

Indeed. To illustrate the moderator dilemma even further, have a look at this fantastic quote from beastie earlier in the thread, emphasis added:

But at some point, [mentalgymnast] decided he was just going to believe. It was better for his life.

I think it was after that decision that his posting behavior gradually began veering in this direction. I think that he is so determined to justify his decision to just believe, no matter what, that he just wants to shut down the information that troubles him.

That's the best analysis of mentalgymnast's behavior I've ever read. But it opens up another line of questioning: Does mentalgymnast even realize that that's what he's doing, or that that's the subconscious motivation that's driving him to do what he does?

If he knows not what he does, does he deserve more patience from the people with whom he interacts, sort of like how, uh, cognitively-challenged kids are granted a free pass for their random verbal outbursts in the classroom, while the neuro-normal kids are immediately chided?

Now that that groundwork has been laid, here are my thoughts on this matter. I won't put mentalgymnast on the queue just yet, because unlike Tobin, his Tobin Syndrome posts have been directed almost solely at grindael, for the reasons beastie posted. grindael's posts constituted the greatest threat to mentalgymnast's delicate mental balancing act (with a nod to Curt van den Heuvel), so grindael's posts received the most attention from mentalgymnast. In other words, mentalgymnast's actions didn't quite rise to the level of "chronic." Enough to drive people crazy, perhaps, but not to the level of chronic-ness that Tobin achieved.

You'll probably disagree, but I think, in my heart of hearts, that mentalgymnast finally has his grindael obsession out of his system. Sure, he posted a grievance thread within 24 hours of being asked not to, but he did indeed refrain from Tobin Syndroming within grindael's own thread(s), just like he said he would. I think I'll take him at his word for now until given a reason not to in the future.

MENTALGYMNAST:

If you're reading this, it will be immensely helpful if, in addition to staying out of grindael's threads AND refraining from starting grievance threads, you ensure that your posts within OTHER people's threads are free from the Tobin Syndrome from now on. How to do this, you ask? Here's how: When responding to someone, don't theorize about what intellectual sin or shortcoming the person's post might hypothetically suffer from. Either point out the specific sin or shortcoming that actually, literally, quantifiably, does indeed exist, or hold your peace.* Otherwise it becomes nothing more than insinuation calculated to harass and annoy. Think about it: How many times did your mere insinuations drive grindael up the wall compared to the number of actual falsehoods in his research, intentional or not, that you truly did identify and point out? What's the numerical ratio?

Or perhaps try this: When you make a post, examine your intent. If your intent is to request clarification, add to, or further enlighten, then go ahead and click "Submit." If your intent is to accuse or to force your respond-ee to justify him- or herself, then do NOT click "Submit."

Follow those guidelines and I'm confident your posts will be free of The Tobin Syndrome. If you're unable to, then I'm afraid I'll have to defer to everyone else and place your posts into the moderator queue.

EVERYONE ELSE:

Here's another thing EAllusion said:

I should add that I think people who respond to posters like MG by engaging in vigilante rule-breaking in order to bring a dose of reverse justice should probably also be queued if they don't knock it off after being warned.

He makes a fantastic point. Responding to trolling (intentional or not) with rule-breaking is NEVER the proper response and, while understandable, tends only to agitate the situation further. Instead of getting angry, give this response a try: "In that case, mentalgymnast, show me specifically how and where I am wrong." Sure, grindael tried that once before and it didn't work, but by the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Second, I respectfully request that you remember beastie's words and consider the fact that there's a chance that he simply knows not what he does. Let's face it: When a true believer encounters quality research of the caliber that grindael treats us to, what else can he say? And what else can the rest of us expect from believers?

Third, there's a good chance that mentalgymnast is unintentionally doing us a favor by showcasing the true believer's mindset when faced with disconfirming information. If that's the case, then perhaps we can become just a little less angry with him when he posts what he posts.

Fourth, please don't allow yourself to be "triggered" by the mere sight of his username (not that that usually happens, but just in case). If he makes a post, please take a virtual step back and ask yourself if he's really, truly trolling, or if this one is genuinely sincere. . . or, at least, is no more trolling than anyone else's posts.

Now, let's discuss the fact that you are angry with me right now over the fact that I'm not putting mentalgymnast on the moderator queue just yet. I know what you're thinking, and in response let me quote one of EAllusion's other comments:

Part of my hesitation is that I absolutely do not favor moderating anyone simply because another poster, no matter how well liked, threatens to quit if we do not do so. It sends the wrong message and can lead to mob impingement on free expression.

That's right. Allowing our hands to be forced by people's departure implies that some posters are more valued than others, and that's absolutely NOT a road I dare go down. That's a sure road to Mormon Dialogue & Discussion-style moderation, and a board like that already exists.

But never fear, if mentalgymnast posts one more blatantly** Tobin Syndrome-esque post, then he'll go right into the moderator queue posthaste.

Whew! Still with me? If so, then last of all, here's something from Xenophon:

As an aside, has there ever been discussion about expanding the mod list? Are we just afraid of too heavy a hand or too many cooks in the kitchen? It just feels that 2 mods that work full time on other things may not be enough to handle the load. I will obviously defer to their judgment on that matter though.

Heh, I would LOVE to have more than one other moderator. Experience has shown, however, that few people want to do it, and among those who do, I'm not always successful in turning them into clones of me.

*But in the interests of free speech, if you truly must comment, then start a different thread.
**As defined by me.

-----[END]-----

[_Dr. Shades]

[MODERATOR NOTE:

Res Ispa and Jersey Girl, I tried to delete a double-post of Res Ispa's. For some reason, they bridged the gap between two pages and somehow they both got deleted instead. When the page reloaded it looked like Jersey Girl's response was a double-post as well, so I accidentally deleted that one too.

MY SINCEREST APOLOGIES for doing that. I promise I did not intend to censor you, nor was I experimenting with being a Mormon Dialogue & Discussion-style moderator.

Feel free to repost, and a huge mea culpa from me. :-( ]

[_Jersey Girl]

Hey that's okay, Shades. Trust me, there are days when I wouldn't mind if you deleted me.

;-)

[Guest]

thank you for your comments, Dr. Shades.

I disagree with one of your groundwork assumptions, however.

That's the best analysis of mentalgymnast's behavior I've ever read. But it opens up another line of questioning: Does mentalgymnast even realize that that's what he's doing, or that that's the subconscious motivation that's driving him to do what he does?

If he knows not what he does, does he deserve more patience from the people with whom he interacts, sort of like how, uh, cognitively-challenged kids are granted a free pass for their random verbal outbursts in the classroom, while the neuro-normal kids are immediately chided?

I'm sorry, Dr. Shades, but that is not fair. Everyone has baggage and cognitive struggles. Everyone should be expected to follow the rules equally. We are not children, and unless you are legitimately arguing that mentalgymnast is disabled or impaired, you are simply rewarding his bad behavior with this part of your policy.

one other point.

I won't put mentalgymnast on the queue just yet, because unlike Tobin, his Tobin Syndrome posts have been directed almost solely at grindael, for the reasons beastie posted. grindael's posts constituted the greatest threat to mentalgymnast's delicate mental balancing act (with a nod to Curt van den Heuvel), so grindael's posts received the most attention from mentalgymnast. In other words, mentalgymnast's actions didn't quite rise to the level of "chronic."

In my opinion, this is not the reason mg picked grindael. Based on the research I have been doing, I believe this is a far more realistic explanation for why mg targeted grindael:

Trolling is usually considered a form of cyberbullying, but there are subtle differences. Cyberbullying targets victims, while trolls use a baiting tactic to find victims who will provide them with the most entertainment. People who take the bait are then considered fair game by the trolls.

Regardless of my opinions, of course I will respect and uphold your rules. For my own reasons, however, I still consider mentalgymnast to be a troll whose main intent is to disrupt, and that his motivations to do so have nothing to do with his religion.

But never fear, if mentalgymnast posts one more blatantly** Tobin Syndrome-esque post, then he'll go right into the moderator queue posthaste.

That sounds great.

[_mentalgymnast]

MENTALGYMNAST:

If you're reading this...

I did. And except for the recognition of a bit of condescending language, I will leave what you're saying intact...on the whole...without quibbling with you.

After all, you're the boss man.

I will do my best to live within and according to your guidelines. I feel bad that you've had to invest your own time in mediating this situation. As a reminder, I have already made a certain commitment earlier which I will also abide by.

Regards,
MG

[_Kishkumen]

This is ludicrous. People like mg don’t monitor themselves. They require outside monitoring. I think the fairest way to interpret the results so far is that we don’t have the moderating resources to keep mg out of everyone’s hair, so we just have to put up with him driving good people away. This is the case not just because people don’t want to be mods, but also because people have a very difficult time meeting Dr. Shades’ particular standards of moderation, which, for all their virtues, are nearly OCD at times.

I don’t have trouble with mg personally, largely because I don’t give a crap about his posts. I do ignore him habitually and I find it better for my health and sanity. There are those people whose minds I have decided I do not want to understand. His is one of them. It’s not that I bear them ill will. I just have better things to do with my time than watching a cat bat around a ball of yarn all day, so to speak.

But it does irk me that free speech here amounts to allowing people to defecate in the middle of a park and placing the responsibility on everyone else to watch where they step and hold their noses. But, hey, if you can’t afford a security guard or find him/her more offensive than washing feces off your shoes every day, what are you going to do?

[_Res Ipsa]

Jersey Girl, if you’ll show me where I said that Kish was unclear, I’ll be happy to apologize to him. Otherwise, please don’t misconstrue my words in order to accuse me of misconstruing someone else’s.

Did I misunderstand? Apologies.

I think so. No sweat. Water under the bridge.