Liberals and American Patriotism - WTF is the problem

[_Markk]

The fact is the Right uses the military in all the ways they accuse the Left of using minorities. You don't REALLY care about them and you don't REALLY respect them, you just say you do because it serves your political agenda

.

So because I am conservative I don't care about the military and just use them, and because you are liberal, you don't care about minorities? So all the time you defend minorities, it is only because it serves your political agenda.

Classic Kevin.

[_Analytics]

You want to know who I think the real patriots are? It's the old man I saw picking up trash with his own bucket, along a city walking path, not because he's employed by the city, but he understands civic duty and cares about his neighborhood. It's the cop who stops and bs's with the kids on his beat, not because he thinks himself some Good GuyTM, but because he likes the people he serves and protects, and because he actually lives in the same neighborhood. It's Jon Huntsman using his wealth to defeat a terrible disease.

All this insane posturing on both sides is headache inducing and just so fake. It'd be really nice if people stopped backslapping the military or using them as a benchmark for love of one's country. It'd be really nice if both sides would stop using minorities as a cudgel; they're just people who do people things and not a damn ing effigy.

It'd be nice to judge a federal manager on his ability to manage a budget, get infrastructure done, and not run our asses into the ground with debt. All the rest of it is a distraction.

- Doc

I'm Analytics, and I approve of this message.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

You know. I was thinking about this thread a bit today, and it's strange to me how this patriotism thing works and how it's being driven by the very people our current system manipulates.

For example, as we know we have here in the US an all-volunteer military. Congress and the President are supposed to represent the interest of the people. Lobbyists however have done nothing but increase the amount of influence corporate America has on all branches of government. Government now represents corporate interests rather than the common man. Lobbyists encourage our government to engage in acts of war, intervention, and espionage in other countries to further their interests and not of the American people. This is a historical fact. We do, in fact, have a military industrial complex that is virtually a 1/4 of our economy. It's insane.

So, where are we at right now, post-WWII dominance-to-globalist-reality. Wages have stagnated for 30 years leaving more and more impoverished as wealth becomes more concentrated. This is a fact. It's 100% undeniable. Lower classes are left with little choices in order to get out of the poverty they were born into. What career offers someone out of high school the opportunity to make money, get an education, and parlay that to something that virtually guarantees them a path out of their economic class?

Corporations like the NFL or news media outlets promote the American military on television. Honoring the military is a requirement at large sporting events. Children grow up reciting the pledge daily. They are exposed to media glorifying warfare from an early age. Recruiters from the military show up to high schools, community colleges, and universities and set up a booth extolling the 'virtues' of 'serving' in the military. College is insanely expensive because it is a for-profit industry. Lawmakers have done nothing to lower the cost of higher education. Veterans get decent healthcare after leaving the military. Healthcare is insanely expensive. Lawmakers have done nothing to lower the cost of healthcare.

Is this patriotism?

Our government has been invaded at every level by profit seekers who will manipulate the common man in any way possible in order to turn a profit. They will shove sugary foods, healthcare, insurance, war, and most importantly shame right down our throats. Here's where, in my opinion, it gets pretty nefarious:

Shame is what keeps this whole thing turning. Shame of not working hard enough, while simultaneously not spending time with family. Shame of our racist past while simultaneously creating an class system that perpetuates racism. We are conditioned to feel ashamed if we don’t have a brand new car or house we can’t afford. After all, the only way to sell someone something is to convince them that they are not good enough without it. What about this growing poor class of society? They were born into a system that emphasizes materialism over everything else. How do they make money? Afford an education? Get off of welfare and social programs? Will they join the military out of high school? Start selling drugs and wind up in prison laboring for pennies on the dollar? Maybe a sports scholarship? Will they work their way up in a UPS factory or at fast food restaurants in a stagnating wage environment where half the jobs will be automated soon anyway?

This is a complicated problem, and I would say the vast majority of people who join the military, once they understand what's being offered, do so because it offers financial security our economy can't. It’s not that it can’t be fixed somehow, it’s just that the ones in power would rather us shut up and work 50 hours a week at our job that barely keeps us above the poverty line and go home to having our brains blasted by advertisements for 5 hours before getting up to start it all over again. There is NO going back to post-WWII industrialism. There are way too many countries competing for resources and jobs in their own backyards.

This thing about military people being heros or us being acculturated to back slap guys and gals who're 'putting it on the line' is really bizarre. I got news for you, the vast majority of military members are induced into service, and are enticed to stay if they're careerists. We're getting ourselves into way too many wars, police actions, patrolling, and skirmishes BECAUSE our economy depends on it, not because of altruism. If you want to know why us enlisted types have a case of gallows humor and are salty as “F” it's because the men and women who are part of this machine aren't so much patriots as they're limited in their options and there's something fundamentally unsettling about that. We do and did what we had to do to make a life for ourselves, and patriotism plays a very, very small part in that.

- Doc

[Guest]

This is patriotism:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... uition-for

University of Wisconsin-Madison to offer free tuition for families making less than $56K

"Many low- and middle-income families in Wisconsin simply don't know whether they can afford to come to UW-Madison," Chancellor Rebecca Blank said as she announced the program, according to the AP.

"Indeed, if they just read the popular press about student debt and sky-rocketing tuition their assumption will be that they can't. We want to make it very clear to low- and moderate-income families in Wisconsin that we're going to do everything we can to make this an affordable school,” she continued.

I love seeing an American institution be a leader and offering a hand up. Good stuff and this what we need in this country.

- Doc

[_Morley]

Thank you for your posts, Cam. I mostly agree.

[Guest]

This is a complicated problem, and I would say the vast majority of people who join the military, once they understand what's being offered, do so because it offers financial security our economy can't. It’s not that it can’t be fixed somehow, it’s just that the ones in power would rather us shut up and work 50 hours a week at our job that barely keeps us above the poverty line and go home to having our brains blasted by advertisements for 5 hours before getting up to start it all over again. There is NO going back to post-WWII industrialism. There are way too many countries competing for resources and jobs in their own backyards.

This thing about military people being heros or us being acculturated to back slap guys and gals who're 'putting it on the line' is really bizarre. I got news for you, the vast majority of military members are induced into service, and are enticed to stay if they're careerists. We're getting ourselves into way too many wars, police actions, patrolling, and skirmishes BECAUSE our economy depends on it, not because of altruism. If you want to know why us enlisted types have a case of gallows humor and are salty as ____ it's because the men and women who are part of this machine aren't so much patriots as they're limited in their options and there's something fundamentally unsettling about that. We do and did what we had to do to make a life for ourselves, and patriotism plays a very, very small part in that.

- Doc

Right on, my father and his siblings (who all joined the military and made careers out of it) all told me many times that they went into the military to make it so their kids had the opportunity not to. He grew up poor AF and took advantage of what they offered. He enlisted in the Marines (before he was drafted anyway) and when the opportunity to be a career Marine evaporated due to some minor health issues he took full advantage of the benefits and went to school. He steered me a away from the military and incentivized me to go to school instead. I respect anyone that chooses to work full time to make a living including choosing the military but the warped perception about the military among certain groups of "patriots" has never made sense to me.

B T W, most of the vets I interact with agree completely with your sentiments above.

[_Res Ipsa]

Doc, that long post on patriotism was superb. Thanks for writing it.

[_Maksutov]

You know. I was thinking about this thread a bit today, and it's strange to me how this patriotism thing works and how it's being driven by the very people our current system manipulates.

For example, as we know we have here in the US an all-volunteer military. Congress and the President are supposed to represent the interest of the people. Lobbyists however have done nothing but increase the amount of influence corporate America has on all branches of government. Government now represents corporate interests rather than the common man. Lobbyists encourage our government to engage in acts of war, intervention, and espionage in other countries to further their interests and not of the American people. This is a historical fact. We do, in fact, have a military industrial complex that is virtually a 1/4 of our economy. It's insane.

So, where are we at right now, post-WWII dominance-to-globalist-reality. Wages have stagnated for 30 years leaving more and more impoverished as wealth becomes more concentrated. This is a fact. It's 100% undeniable. Lower classes are left with little choices in order to get out of the poverty they were born into. What career offers someone out of high school the opportunity to make money, get an education, and parlay that to something that virtually guarantees them a path out of their economic class?

Corporations like the NFL or news media outlets promote the American military on television. Honoring the military is a requirement at large sporting events. Children grow up reciting the pledge daily. They are exposed to media glorifying warfare from an early age. Recruiters from the military show up to high schools, community colleges, and universities and set up a booth extolling the 'virtues' of 'serving' in the military. College is insanely expensive because it is a for-profit industry. Lawmakers have done nothing to lower the cost of higher education. Veterans get decent healthcare after leaving the military. Healthcare is insanely expensive. Lawmakers have done nothing to lower the cost of healthcare.

Is this patriotism?

Our government has been invaded at every level by profit seekers who will manipulate the common man in any way possible in order to turn a profit. They will shove sugary foods, healthcare, insurance, war, and most importantly shame right down our throats. Here's where, in my opinion, it gets pretty nefarious:

Shame is what keeps this whole thing turning. Shame of not working hard enough, while simultaneously not spending time with family. Shame of our racist past while simultaneously creating an class system that perpetuates racism. We are conditioned to feel ashamed if we don’t have a brand new car or house we can’t afford. After all, the only way to sell someone something is to convince them that they are not good enough without it. What about this growing poor class of society? They were born into a system that emphasizes materialism over everything else. How do they make money? Afford an education? Get off of welfare and social programs? Will they join the military out of high school? Start selling drugs and wind up in prison laboring for pennies on the dollar? Maybe a sports scholarship? Will they work their way up in a UPS factory or at fast food restaurants in a stagnating wage environment where half the jobs will be automated soon anyway?

This is a complicated problem, and I would say the vast majority of people who join the military, once they understand what's being offered, do so because it offers financial security our economy can't. It’s not that it can’t be fixed somehow, it’s just that the ones in power would rather us shut up and work 50 hours a week at our job that barely keeps us above the poverty line and go home to having our brains blasted by advertisements for 5 hours before getting up to start it all over again. There is NO going back to post-WWII industrialism. There are way too many countries competing for resources and jobs in their own backyards.

This thing about military people being heros or us being acculturated to back slap guys and gals who're 'putting it on the line' is really bizarre. I got news for you, the vast majority of military members are induced into service, and are enticed to stay if they're careerists. We're getting ourselves into way too many wars, police actions, patrolling, and skirmishes BECAUSE our economy depends on it, not because of altruism. If you want to know why us enlisted types have a case of gallows humor and are salty as ____ it's because the men and women who are part of this machine aren't so much patriots as they're limited in their options and there's something fundamentally unsettling about that. We do and did what we had to do to make a life for ourselves, and patriotism plays a very, very small part in that.

- Doc

Excellent, Doc. It would be great to see this published as an op-ed in a major newspaper. We really need this perspective right now.

[_subgenius]

...(snip for brevity).. We do and did what we had to do to make a life for ourselves, and patriotism plays a very, very small part in that.

- Doc

Actually, it seems that your conclusion is at the very core for the definition of patriotism.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

...(snip for brevity).. We do and did what we had to do to make a life for ourselves, and patriotism plays a very, very small part in that.

- Doc

Actually, it seems that your conclusion is at the very core for the definition of patriotism.

Ah. This makes sense now. You conflate self-interest with love of one's country.

- Doc