huckelberry wrote:Ceebo, the idea of foreshadowing might be better understood as themes and ideas seen earlier which are reviewed in light of later events by later writers. It is natural for there to be repeating themes as people continue to consider the same problem.
I have read your response, then read it again - then read it again - and I remain unsure what you're getting at. If you would, can you try to explain what you're saying again?
To be honest, I don't think there is any question that the story points to Jesus. Here is another Old Testament story that points to Jesus (Numbers 21)
The Bronze Serpent 4Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
Abraham would want to prove himself and the sacrifice was the culturally expected way. The odd thing in the story is that God prevents the sacrifice and establishes a start of Jewish rethinking of the whole problem.
Ceeboo wrote:If Jesus is not who he claimed he was and if he did not resurrect, then the Bible as well as Christianity is meaningless. If Jesus is who he claimed he is and if he did resurrect, then I can't imagine anything being more important.
Sounds like Pascal's wager? Is that what you are proposing with this statement?
Ceeboo wrote:, if Jesus was not who he claimed he was (God) and he did not die and resurrect - then the Bible and His message is completely meaningless.
Nope.
Like other sacred books of religions that ultimately make false claims about the universe, the Old and New Testaments (two very different collections of quite disparate writings), are a fascinating record of our predecessors' attempts to make sense of their experience of living as finite beings in a complex, sometimes beautiful but sometimes threatening universe, and doing so in the company of other beings like themselves, endowed with the capacities for love and hate, kindness and cruelty. I still get a lot out of reading it from time to time.
I mean, even the Book of Mormon has its good parts ...
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:I mean, even the Book of Mormon has its good parts ...
You guys quit bashing us Mormons. We have the fullness of the true gospel restored by modern day Prophets! If Ceeboo was a Catholic, his roots are from 'The whore of the earth' (BRM). We know this from seer stones, golden plates, many angel visits, resurrected being visits (Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter James and John etc), polygamy, polyandry, restored Masonry. I've only but started with this list! The rest of Christianity is weak sauce.
Returning to MDB Bible Study: Let's take a look at the Book of Isaiah - Chapter 53
First - Because of the nature of things found in this book (perhaps implications?) there has been several very hotly contested debates surrounding the entire book of Isaiah - (authorship, dates, etc) - So in light of that - and to not muddy the MDB Bible study, I will not delve into these debates about the Biblical claim of a 700 BC time period and I narrow the focus of this Bible study to Isaiah 53.
Having said that - I want to lay out a very short bit of information regarding one of the Dead Sea Scrolls discoveries (The Dead Sea Scrolls is fascinating on a wide range of issues - but - again - as to not muddy the waters of this particular post, I will provide a very brief piece of information) The Great Isaiah Scroll was one find - The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the Book of Isaiah - dating from around 125 BC - It's one of the oldest Dead Sea Scrolls, some 1,000 years older than the the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery.
On to our study:
Isaiah 53 New King James Version (NKJV) The Sin-Bearing Messiah 53 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no [a]form or [b]comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no [c]beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and [d]rejected by men, A Man of [e]sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs And carried our [h]sorrows; Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken, [j]Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions, He was [l]bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes[m] we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. 11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:2 notes, "For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him." These words predict a man who would not stand out due to his looks or royal background. Jesus was born in a manger and grew up in a small Jewish town, fitting the prediction of these words.
Isaiah 53:3 predicts, "He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Jesus was despised and rejected by the Jews. His death was so repulsive that it would lead men to hide their faces.
Isaiah 53:4-9 share many details that match Jesus and only Jesus: "Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth."
The ideas of pierced, crushed, chastised, and wounded all fit the sufferings Jesus endured on the cross. Further, His wounds bring healing to those who believe in Him. Jesus has taken our sins upon Him. He did not protest at His trials, but was silent in His defense and was slaughtered similar to the manner of a lamb led to death. His grave, or death, was with the wicked since Jesus was crucified with two criminals. He was buried in the tomb of a rich man. He had done no violence, yet had died as a criminal.
Do these details fit with Jesus? And only Jesus? Is this another Old Testament writing that points to Jesus?
huckelberry wrote:Ceebo, the idea of foreshadowing might be better understood as themes and ideas seen earlier which are reviewed in light of later events by later writers. It is natural for there to be repeating themes as people continue to consider the same problem.
I have read your response, then read it again - then read it again - and I remain unsure what you're getting at. If you would, can you try to explain what you're saying again?
To be honest, I don't think there is any question that the story points to Jesus. Here is another Old Testament story that points to Jesus (Numbers 21)
Abraham would want to prove himself and the sacrifice was the culturally expected way. The odd thing in the story is that God prevents the sacrifice and establishes a start of Jewish rethinking of the whole problem.
Perhaps?
Thanks for joining the Bible study!
Ceebo, it can be a puzzle finding where a communication fails to connect. I wonder if you were thinking I was rejecting the sort of inspired prefiguring that you were pointing to. No I was not rejecting that, I can believe it but doubt that skeptics will be much swayed.I do find the development of ideas and thought which link the prefiguring events to Jesus as of particular interest.
The Isaiah passage you present has been important for Christians thinking about what Jesus did and who he was from the very beginning of Christianity. It is an excellent example of how scriptural ideas develop to build toward later understanding of events.
huckelberry wrote:Ceebo, it can be a puzzle finding where a communication fails to connect. I wonder if you were thinking I was rejecting the sort of inspired prefiguring that you were pointing to. No I was not rejecting that, I can believe it
Actually, I really wasn't sure what you were thinking. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.