Why don’t Mormons demand more from their prophets?

[Doctor Steuss]

Many (at least in the mainstream Mormonism) expect very little from God and the other side of the veil as well. When you look at the early days of the church, meetings were commonly filled with heavenly visitations. Even well into President Snow’s time, angelic manifestations during meetings weren’t unheard of. The journals of Saints who lived well into the early 1900s have accounts of regular church meetings being visited by celestial beings. My own great-great-great-Grandfather witnessed someone resurrected and ascend to heaven after he disturbed their bones while plowing. In Mormonism, the fruits of the spirit were once visual, and tangible. Heavenly beings were touched, seen, and conversed with. The veil was often thin. The experiences were shared freely, with believer and non-believer alike. Miracles, after all, are a conversion and witnessing tool in their own way.

Revelation was once holy writ.

Manifestations of the spirit were once speaking in tongues, and angelic visitations.

Now, it’s all spiritual Twinkies and building announcements, and being conditioned to cry.

I was fortunate to have been pen pals with a Seventy in the Community of Christ for about 8 years, before I lost contact with him (I believe he passed about two years ago). His communications were often filled with accounts of the divine manifestations he had received not only communing with fellow saints, but also experiencing the religious sacraments of other belief systems (such as his being ministered by angels while worshiping with Native Americans on a reservation).

With each generation, the corporate Mormonism of the CofJCofLDS seems to manage to take a little bit more of that magic away, correlating belief into milquetoast pablum, where the heavens, God, and the designated messengers on earth are allowed to point to words and acts, and declare it to be more than the mediocracy that it so plainly is. A game of the emperors new clothes, with each "wise man" speaking with reverence as they plagiarize common wisdom, and shallow platitudes, looking down and claiming that they don't throw pearls before swine.

[MG 2.0]

This answer to this question is dependent, at least as far as I can see, on whether or not one believes in revelation from God (number 1) and whether or not one believes that the restoration narrative holds water (number 2).

Then there’s this:



It’s not rocket science.

Regards,
MG

Good point - something else we can agree on.

You see, rocket science is reality-based, and has tangible and repeatable results that do not depend on a god, or on a particular set of beliefs. If someone who disbelieves in rocket science fires off a rocket and follows its trajectory, they get exactly the same results as someone who does believe in rocket science. Day after day.

Revelation is definitely not rocket science!

In that matter of speaking, you’re right.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Many (at least in the mainstream Mormonism) expect very little from God and the other side of the veil as well. When you look at the early days of the church, meetings were commonly filled with heavenly visitations. Even well into President Snow’s time, angelic manifestations during meetings weren’t unheard of. The journals of Saints who lived well into the early 1900s have accounts of regular church meetings being visited by celestial beings. My own great-great-great-Grandfather witnessed someone resurrected and ascend to heaven after he disturbed their bones while plowing. In Mormonism, the fruits of the spirit were once visual, and tangible. Heavenly beings were touched, seen, and conversed with. The veil was often thin. The experiences were shared freely, with believer and non-believer alike. Miracles, after all, are a conversion and witnessing tool in their own way.

Revelation was once holy writ.

Manifestations of the spirit were once speaking in tongues, and angelic visitations.

Now, it’s all spiritual Twinkies and building announcements, and being conditioned to cry.

I was fortunate to have been pen pals with a Seventy in the Community of Christ for about 8 years, before I lost contact with him (I believe he passed about two years ago). His communications were often filled with accounts of the divine manifestations he had received not only communing with fellow saints, but also experiencing the religious sacraments of other belief systems (such as his being ministered by angels while worshiping with Native Americans on a reservation).

With each generation, the corporate Mormonism of the CofJCofLDS seems to manage to take a little bit more of that magic away, correlating belief into milquetoast pablum, where the heavens, God, and the designated messengers on earth are allowed to point to words and acts, and declare it to be more than the mediocracy that it so plainly is. A game of the emperors new clothes, with each "wise man" speaking with reverence as they plagiarize common wisdom, and shallow platitudes, looking down and claiming that they don't throw pearls before swine.

I hear what you’re saying. Hypothetically from a faithful, active and believing perspective how would you explain this (what you’re saying).

I’m wondering if you’ve thought about a plausible answer to this question.

Or do you think that the fact that spiritual manifestations are either non existent (in reality anyway) or are less visible in the ‘corporate church’ (to focus on Mormonism in particular) is hard evidence that the purpose/message/veracity of the LDS Church is bogus and there isn’t any other explanation (faithful explanation anyway) that can even begin to hold water?

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

The question I ask myself is just HOW narrow is the way and just HOW few enter onto the correct path to make this pronouncement found in the teachings of Jesus believable or RELEVANT in today’s world?

The CofJCofLDS has an outreach far and above any other of the restoration movements, albeit a small footprint (few there be) in the world at large.

In my view the CofJCofLDS bears the fruits at a scale that makes a real difference (a little leaven) in the world at large compared to the other restoration movements.

You may think that is of no or little consequence. That is your prerogative.

Regards,
MG

Within the world of Christians, I would say there are plenty of groups that leaven the world at large. Christianity does a lot of good in the world. The LDS Church is part of that. So are other restoration groups. Each has its role to play, and I don't think any of the worthy groups doing good work are regretted or neglected by God. All are relevant as they serve others and work toward the salvation of humankind. Maybe the LDS branch has a special call to temple service. Maybe the Community of Christ has a special call to bring peace. All of those things ought to be valued and respected. There should be less concern about who is more or less important. All are part of the body of Christ, in my view.

[Gadianton]

Or do you think that the fact that spiritual manifestations are either non existent (in reality anyway) or are less visible in the ‘corporate church’ (to focus on Mormonism in particular) is hard evidence that the purpose/message/veracity of the LDS Church is bogus and there isn’t any other explanation (faithful explanation anyway) that can even begin to hold water?

There's a great answer. New religions need miracles to get off the ground and then as time goes on, they grow up. As Paul said, as I became an adult I put away my childish things. Conservation of miracles: miracles aren't just for show. As time goes on, if the Church can accomplish tasks by mundane means then it should. It should strive to be self-sufficient as much as possible.

The only problem is...

Perfect example of switching from offense to defense that I discussed earlier.

This is the same excuse the Catholic Church used over centuries to walk back the expectation of miracles, and Mormonism for a long time held the feet of Catholicism to the fire while boasting of being a faith of miracles and wonders. Even Hugh Nibley makes fun of Catholicism for explaining away the need for miracles. Now that you've moved the game to defense, sure, there are some great reasons why miracles might not proliferate ostentatiously long term in the only true church. It's just that now you can take a number and be one of many large religions playing defense. Perhaps Catholicism is worth looking into since "no miracles" doesn't count against it anymore?

IF the Church could point to real miracles -- an offensive move -- it would stand out from the 10,000 others (might) be worth considering.

[MG 2.0]

The question I ask myself is just HOW narrow is the way and just HOW few enter onto the correct path to make this pronouncement found in the teachings of Jesus believable or RELEVANT in today’s world?

The CofJCofLDS has an outreach far and above any other of the restoration movements, albeit a small footprint (few there be) in the world at large.

In my view the CofJCofLDS bears the fruits at a scale that makes a real difference (a little leaven) in the world at large compared to the other restoration movements.

You may think that is of no or little consequence. That is your prerogative.

Regards,
MG

Within the world of Christians, I would say there are plenty of groups that leaven the world at large. Christianity does a lot of good in the world. The LDS Church is part of that. So are other restoration groups. Each has its role to play, and I don't think any of the worthy groups doing good work are regretted or neglected by God. All are relevant as they serve others and work toward the salvation of humankind. Maybe the LDS branch has a special call to temple service. Maybe the Community of Christ has a special call to bring peace. All of those things out to be valued and respected. There should be less concern about who is more or less important. All are part of the body of Christ, in my view.

Actually, I don’t disagree much with this. Terryl and Fiona Givens would give you a high five.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Many (at least in the mainstream Mormonism) expect very little from God and the other side of the veil as well. When you look at the early days of the church, meetings were commonly filled with heavenly visitations. Even well into President Snow’s time, angelic manifestations during meetings weren’t unheard of. The journals of Saints who lived well into the early 1900s have accounts of regular church meetings being visited by celestial beings. My own great-great-great-Grandfather witnessed someone resurrected and ascend to heaven after he disturbed their bones while plowing. In Mormonism, the fruits of the spirit were once visual, and tangible. Heavenly beings were touched, seen, and conversed with. The veil was often thin. The experiences were shared freely, with believer and non-believer alike. Miracles, after all, are a conversion and witnessing tool in their own way.

Revelation was once holy writ.

Manifestations of the spirit were once speaking in tongues, and angelic visitations.

Now, it’s all spiritual Twinkies and building announcements, and being conditioned to cry.

I was fortunate to have been pen pals with a Seventy in the Community of Christ for about 8 years, before I lost contact with him (I believe he passed about two years ago). His communications were often filled with accounts of the divine manifestations he had received not only communing with fellow saints, but also experiencing the religious sacraments of other belief systems (such as his being ministered by angels while worshiping with Native Americans on a reservation).

With each generation, the corporate Mormonism of the CofJCofLDS seems to manage to take a little bit more of that magic away, correlating belief into milquetoast pablum, where the heavens, God, and the designated messengers on earth are allowed to point to words and acts, and declare it to be more than the mediocracy that it so plainly is. A game of the emperors new clothes, with each "wise man" speaking with reverence as they plagiarize common wisdom, and shallow platitudes, looking down and claiming that they don't throw pearls before swine.

I hear what you’re saying. Hypothetically from a faithful, active and believing perspective how would you explain this (what you’re saying).

I’m wondering if you’ve thought about a plausible answer to this question.

Or do you think that the fact that spiritual manifestations are either non existent (in reality anyway) or are less visible in the ‘corporate church’ (to focus on Mormonism in particular) is hard evidence that the purpose/message/veracity of the LDS Church is bogus and there isn’t any other explanation (faithful explanation anyway) that can even begin to hold water?

Regards,
MG

*bump
Hey Dr. Steuss, if you feel so inclined I’d be interested in your thoughts in regards to the inquiries made in my last post to you.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor Steuss]

I hear what you’re saying. Hypothetically from a faithful, active and believing perspective how would you explain this (what you’re saying).

I’m wondering if you’ve thought about a plausible answer to this question.

From a faithful/active/believing perspective: A lack of worthiness and faith.

[sock puppet]

* * *When you look at the early days of the church, meetings were commonly filled with heavenly visitations.* * *
Revelation was once holy writ.

Manifestations of the spirit were once speaking in tongues, and angelic visitations.

Now, it’s all spiritual Twinkies and building announcements, and being conditioned to cry.

* * *

With each generation, the corporate Mormonism of the CofJCofLDS seems to manage to take a little bit more of that magic away, correlating belief into milquetoast pablum, where the heavens, God, and the designated messengers on earth are allowed to point to words and acts, and declare it to be more than the mediocracy that it so plainly is. A game of the emperors new clothes, with each "wise man" speaking with reverence as they plagiarize common wisdom, and shallow platitudes, looking down and claiming that they don't throw pearls before swine.

BKP: It's too sacred to talk about.

[Doctor Steuss]

BKP: It's too sacred to talk about.

An appearance by the Son of God, and God the Father: Not only ok to talk about, but ok to talk about so much that there ends up being different versions of the story.

An appearance of any other heavenly visitor, or experience: That's too sacred to talk about.