Honestly looking at the way they treated another survivor of Dohn's on Reddit (especially when they claim to care so much about survivors) was disgusting and mildly traumatizing as a survivor of parental abuse; can only imagine what the actual survivor went through. Honestly, if they lionize John to that extent, maybe he's exactly what they deserve. Someone actually said that one survivor was taking out her trauma from childhood SA onto John (implied to be the TRUE victim) bc she couldn't process it in an otherwise healthy way. It might be the grossest form of gaslighting I've ever seen.
Yeah, I think that helps. So, I have no idea who this survivor is, except perhaps Kamp. If it is so, to use the word gaslighting to describe anyone but Kamp's actions in that situation is bonkers. Kamp was the gaslighter, as was clear in the legal proceedings where the judge appropriately slammed her for being deceptive and abusing the legal system.
It may also help to point out that Rosebud is all over this material backing up Kamp all the way. The whole thread has devolved into something that is just about worthless, as it has become a place where people hope to use Krad Bramer to relitigate the interminable conflict between Kamp and Rosebud, on the one side, and Dehlin on the other.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Saying a person's problems with sexual harassment and how they treat women don't rise to the level of "Kimball and Bramer" inappropriately minimizes the issue. It's fallacious reasoning.
Yes, I agree Rosebud has serious issues, but the bottom line for me is still that Dehlin got her fired after he had a sexual encounter with her. He's handled the aftermath of this sexual harassment of Rosebud very badly, as has she, but that doesn't excuse his behavior, nor the behavior that multiple other first-hand, documented reports have shown.
The issue of this thread, which I chose as the thread's author, is this: John Dehlin is not a predator.
Distinguishing between what Dehlin is and what Dehlin is not does not "inappropriately minimize the issue."
It is not fallacious reasoning.
To equate sexual predation with John Dehlin's faults does "inappropriately minimize" sexual predation, while inappropriately exaggerating John Dehlin's actual problems.
And I thought it was worth doing because Dehlin critics of the sloppier and more vehement sort have been known to use the rhetoric of sexual predation in John's case. There was even that infamous website where he was accused of being a child predator.
I would go further and say that John does not have victims. He has detractors. He has people he has fallen out with. He has people with whom he has had differences. He has undoubtedly behaved poorly toward others at times.
John Dehlin does not have "victims."
But a specious narrative of heroic victimhood is exactly what Rosebud and Kamp have abused in order to attack John Dehlin incessantly. I would argue that neither person, nor Kristy Money, is a victim of John Dehlin. So, where are the victims of John Dehlin? I don't see any. I doubt there are any.
I mean, JD getting Open Stories Foundation to ‘get rid of Rosebud’ because of his own unprofessional conduct probably rises to the level of victim. She suffered a loss of income because the power dynamic between him and her was absolute and in his favor.
It doesn’t matter that she’s crazier than a dog in a hubcap factory.
drumdude you report that you have spent a good deal of time with evidence but your reports about that evidence are short and very vague. It seems to me if you are going to the trouble of reviewing this you could be more forthcoming about specifically what you see and what you see that indicating.
Am I too lazy to read through piles of reports? Well I am not attached to John Dehlin. I am generally not able to sit through one of his interviews. In general problems with exmormons is a subject which is important to me. I know nothing of an exmormon community but a few exmormon friends are valuable. I think internet communication has helped awareness and helped people think. The urge to look to leaders appears to create possibilities of danger.
Life is too short and time too precious to pay any attention to the Kamp and Rosebud show. Spoiler alert: they are perhaps unwell and obsessed with attacking John Dehlin. You can draw your own conclusions, but, after having watched this drama for many years, that is mine.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
I mean, John Dehlin getting Open Stories Foundation to ‘get rid of Rosebud’ because of his own unprofessional conduct probably rises to the level of victim. She suffered a loss of income because the power dynamic between him and her was absolute and in his favor.
It doesn’t matter that she’s crazier than a dog in a hubcap factory.
-Doc
I don't think unfairness is the necessarily the same thing as victimization. Certainly not in this case. Your description of what happened to Rosebud, after she attempted to convince John to shove the head of Open Stories aside so they could run the organization together, is woefully oversimplified. You could definitely convince me that she is a victim in the same way this guy is a victim:
But I don't think he is a victim. Also, a failed coup requires willing allies. At least the QAnon shaman had that much. Rosebud had a failed coup of one. She failed to win over her first attempted ally: John Dehlin.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
drumdude you report that you have spent a good deal of time with evidence but your reports about that evidence are short and very vague. It seems to me if you are going to the trouble of reviewing this you could be more forthcoming about specifically what you see and what you see that indicating.
Am I too lazy to read through piles of reports? Well I am not attached to John Dehlin. I am generally not able to sit through one of his interviews. In general problems with exmormons is a subject which is important to me. I know nothing of an exmormon community but a few exmormon friends are valuable. I think internet communication has helped awareness and helped people think. The urge to look to leaders appears to create possibilities of danger.
I selected passages from the evidence and they were removed per forum rules, since John Dehlin is a member of this forum and I can’t post private messages that he hasn’t approved to be posted here.
I mean, JD getting Open Stories Foundation to ‘get rid of Rosebud’ because of his own unprofessional conduct probably rises to the level of victim. She suffered a loss of income because the power dynamic between him and her was absolute and in his favor.
It doesn’t matter that she’s crazier than a dog in a hubcap factory.
-Doc
No it doesn't. It makes it difficult to empathize, but it doesn't change the facts as you stated them. Describing that event as simply "Dehlin behaving poorly" is grossly inappropriate.
No it doesn't. It makes it difficult to empathize, but it doesn't change the facts as you stated them. Describing that event as simply "Dehlin behaving poorly" is grossly inappropriate.
I think both of them acted very inappropriately. Rosebud’s plan to oust the head of Open Stories so she and John could seize control is very inappropriate to say the least. Imagine if John had agreed to it!
I would call ignoring the agency of Rosebud from beginning to end absolutely nuts. But that is what we see here and elsewhere. I guess John compelled all of her bad behavior from beginning to end. Rosebud the puppet, who was forced to volunteer for OS, forced to keep interacting with JD when he flirted with her, forced to take a job at Open Stories Foundation, forced to engage in an extra-marital affair when she was married, forced to propose overthrowing the head of OS so she and John could take over.
Never has there been a more passive, compelled victim than Rosebud.
The same one who told us she sought an affair.
Maybe John Dehlin mesmerized her into thinking so.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
I would call ignoring the agency of Rosebud from beginning to end absolutely nuts. But that is what we see here and elsewhere. I guess John compelled all of her bad behavior from beginning to end
This forum has been calling out Rosebud for more than a decade. Especially when she has made unsubstantiated claims of rape, or grooming, or whatever other delusion she came up with that doesn’t fit the facts. Marcus and I have both called her out more times than I can count. None of us have ever implied John is responsible for her making up allegations.
This forum has been calling out Rosebud for more than a decade. Especially when she has made unsubstantiated claims of rape, or grooming, or whatever other delusion she came up with that doesn’t fit the facts. Marcus and I have both called her out more times than I can count. None of us have ever implied John is responsible for her making up allegations.
“This forum.” I have a much better familiarity with this forum than you do. I have probably been the most consistent and earliest Rosebud skeptic here. Some only very recently finally realized that Rosebud was full of crap. I don’t give much credit to the John-and-Janey-come-latelys who for far too long castigated us for seeing through Rosebud, and attacked the people who brought the receipts. Still there is a desire to stick it to Dehlin as much as possible, while “generously” conceding that Rosebud lacks credibility.
In any case, the main purpose of this thread is to point out that John is not a predator like Kimball and Bramer, and I have yet to see anyone offer substantive pushback. It is more of the same “well, John is a really bad guy, as all decent people recognize, and you are behaving poorly for not maintaining the focus on what a bad guy he is, which, as all right thinking people know, is what really matters.”
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
This forum has been calling out Rosebud for more than a decade. Especially when she has made unsubstantiated claims of rape, or grooming, or whatever other delusion she came up with that doesn’t fit the facts. Marcus and I have both called her out more times than I can count. None of us have ever implied John is responsible for her making up allegations.
“This forum.” I have a much better familiarity with this forum than you do. I have probably been the most consistent and earliest Rosebud skeptic here. Some only very recently finally realized that Rosebud was full of crap. I don’t give much credit to the John-and-Janey-come-latelys who for far too long castigated us for seeing through Rosebud, and attacked the people who brought the receipts. Still there is a desire to stick it to Dehlin as much as possible, while “generously” conceding that Rosebud lacks credibility.
In any case, the main purpose of this thread is to point out that John is not a predator like Kimball and Bramer, and I have yet to see anyone offer substantive pushback. It is more of the same “well, John is a really bad guy, as all decent people recognize, and you are behaving poorly for not maintaining the focus on what a bad guy he is, which, as all right thinking people know, is what really matters.”
Who else besides Rosebud and Kamp is calling John a predator? If there was ever sympathy for that position on the forum, I've missed it.
Rosebud has been consistently dogpiled on by the forum members, and rightly so. We have very different memories about this.
