Study shows LDS Church participation increases risk to children from abusers

[sock puppet]

So your answer is Mormon God is both insane for letting children be molested by Mormon Bishops, and Mormon God is too impotent to do anything about it anyway. Bravo, good and faithful servant, bravo!

So the dilemma for an apologist on this one is that either God is impotent and cannot intervene for some reason (where does that leave all those testimonies that claim God DID intervene to stop the rain for a temple groundbreaking, or to bring that gnat back to life, or…etc?). Or God could intervene but chooses not to - which makes him complicit in the abuse.

The fact remains. Involving your children in organised religion, including the Mormon Church, increases the chances of them being abused. Join the church and put your kids at elevated risk - great missionary message.

That's where the rubber hits the road with the Problem of Evil, which apologists have just never quite been able to come up with an argument that is any better than what rubbish emanates from Daniel C. Peterson on a whole variety of religious topics.

[I Have Questions]

Your kids will be safer if they aren’t active in Mormonism. That’s the conclusion of the study DCP helpfully provided. I’m guessing he didn’t really read the article he linked to.

[MG 2.0]

That's where the rubber hits the road with the Problem of Evil...

And Agency is at its root.

Regards
MG

[I Have Questions]

That's where the rubber hits the road with the Problem of Evil...

And Agency is at its root.

Regards
MG

Not for the victims.

[I Have Questions]

I’m interested in how MG explains “agency” in the case of a clinical psychopath or narcissist. These people have a compromised sense of right and wrong. They don’t understand “choice” and “consequences” in the way most people understand those things. If a sexual abuser was abused as a child, and so have a compromised sense of right and wrong and behavioural expectations, where is the agency capacity for that individual and their victims?

The Church has no capacity, no process, no safety nets, to prevent or manage the situation where someone with a personality disorder is appointed to a position where they are guaranteed unfettered access to potential victims - well, other than the Kirton McConkie Cover-up hotline. Which is why the study shows that children are more at risk if they are involved with Mormonism.

[MG 2.0]

And Agency is at its root.

Regards
MG

Not for the victims.

They're safety and well being is compromised by the person (s) that exercises their agency to do harm.

Cause and effect. That is the nature of living in a world in which human nature rules the day.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I’m interested in how MG explains “agency” in the case of a clinical psychopath or narcissist. These people have a compromised sense of right and wrong. They don’t understand “choice” and “consequences” in the way most people understand those things. If a sexual abuser was abused as a child, and so have a compromised sense of right and wrong and behavioural expectations, where is the agency capacity for that individual and their victims?

The Church has no capacity, no process, no safety nets, to prevent or manage the situation where someone with a personality disorder is appointed to a position where they are guaranteed unfettered access to potential victims - well, other than the Kirton McConkie Cover-up hotline. Which is why the study shows that children are more at risk if they are involved with Mormonism.

Again, it is cause and effect. Biology also 'rules the day'. Some folks are victim/subject to their biology in a way that results in bad actions/behavior. That in turn impacts negatively the behaviors/actions of that person. Another feature of living in a natural world in which genetics and evolution take their course.

That's another reason that we need a Savior who has performed and almost incomprehensible Atonement to make the outcomes of a fallen world of nature 'right' in the end. That's a hard pill to swallow, yes, that one Man/God could play such an important part in the scheme of things as to make all the hurts/pains/inequities, etc., etc. right. In order to believe that this 'failsafe' mechanism is in place and operative, however, one must have a certain degree of confidence in a hereafter where things work out for the greater good.

Your option is to believe that all the horrors that happen on the planet are just that. No recompense. No meaning.

No thanks. I'll take/choose hope in an Infinite Atonement.

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

I think it enters as a poor justification for the failings of churches around the globe.

That's a non answer. In a sense, it's rather meaningless. Why is agency a "poor justification for the failings of churches around the globe"? You didn't give any specific reasons to back up your assertion.

Regards,
MG

Of course it's an answer and it's pretty obvious why but I forget I'm talking to a defend no matter what guy and someone that will do whatever gymnastics are necessary to justify his church. So, God supposedly inspires the leaders to install molesters in positions where they can molest and doesn't seem to realize that like wolves go to where the sheep are, molesters go where children are, where the parents are overly trusting. God doesn't inspire the leaders to make changes that God should know, but instead seems to want to cover up the problem. Then supposedly inspires weak leaders to push the agency nonsense when the cover-up gets discovered.

[MG 2.0]

That's a non answer. In a sense, it's rather meaningless. Why is agency a "poor justification for the failings of churches around the globe"? You didn't give any specific reasons to back up your assertion.

Regards,
MG

Of course it's an answer...

But not a good one that covers the bases.

...I'm talking to a defend no matter what guy...

I call it like I see it.

...and someone that will do whatever gymnastics are necessary to justify his church.

If the justification is justified I call it like I see it.

So, God supposedly inspires the leaders to install molesters in positions where they can molest...

Yeah, right. That's so lame.

...and doesn't seem to realize that like wolves go to where the sheep are, molesters go where children are...

Whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same. Agency of man is then operative and man/leaders chooses to receive the revelation or reject it. Sometimes the calling may be a result of desperation rather than inspiration. A person might be called with a higher calling and then fail to stay within bounds in regards to expected behavior.

...where the parents are overly trusting.

Parents should not be overly trusting. People are fallible.

God doesn't inspire the leaders to make changes that God should know, but instead seems to want to cover up the problem. Then supposedly inspires weak leaders to push the agency nonsense when the cover-up gets discovered.

The world is a world of nature. People take the course that their biology, their upbringing, and their own choices dictate. A person can break/fight against the 'natural man' and can succeed with the Lord's help. Unfortunately, there are too many people that don't fully trust God...that he can make them stronger against temptation. But as I said earlier, you then have situations where biology is stronger than spiritual will. The two come in conflict.

We live in a fallen world with people that are going to do stupid things. Now, how God's foreknowledge in regards to people doing stupid things works...that's above my pay grade. It seems as if God knows something is going to happen He would stop it happening, literally, in each and every case. But that's not the way God seems to work. He let's nature take its course with hopes that good will overcome evil. Again, that's where the Atonement of Christ comes in to make everything fit together, even when broken.

Yes, that takes a LOT of faith to believe. That God can make everything right as we move into the eternities even though people screw things up at time here. I think that the God of the lost keys is somewhat of a myth without any real evidence/substance. One could then extrapolate from that and say that God, in some respects, is the Deistic God that let's things...generally speaking...take their own course with the knowledge that a whole lot of people are going to screw up pretty often.

Unfortunately, I think critics and unbelievers have it wrong when they give/want God to solve every problem that comes along. It just doesn't work that way. Humans are here to learn. To overcome. To forgive. To forebear. To grow. Etc. These things don't happen unless there is REAL opposition.

In ALL things. Including withing the system of religions we call the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's a built in feature.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

I love when Mormons point to the “natural man” stuff.

As if Joseph Smith wasn’t the world’s biggest philanderer, convincing dozens of women to sleep with him while he was married to Emma. I mean give me a break. Honestly. The utter hypocrisy.

All under the auspices of restoring Christ’s church. Nauseating.