WHO or WHICH is most important?

[Shulem]

...why would God feel the need to torture Jesus for hours?

Torture is evil and has nothing to do with a father’s love for his son. In my view, the doctrine of animal and human sacrifice is Satanic in nature. It could be argued that Moses was an agent of Satan and the writers of the New Testament continued in that same spirit in effort to come up with something more grand and call it the New Covenant, hence the birth of a new cult.

[bill4long]

The reality is that because everyone sins, everyone is excluded from GOD's presence ---- no matter how seemingly insignificant the sin may seem. This means that everyone must pay the fine of eternal separation from GOD unless one has a perfect SAVIOR to pay the penalty in their place. This is what GOD did on our behalf.

Sidebar continued again:

The "penalty" entailing some supernatural entity incarnating into a human body for about thirty years, and then at the end of it, having one very bad weekend. And this very bad weekend somehow satisfies the High God's extreme displeasure regarding all that human misbehaving rampant on planet earth.

Question to you: exactly how does the sacrificial victim's very bad weekend assuage the High God's hurt feelings?

Last time around (Gen 6:6) the High God was so hurt and sorrowful about all that human misbehaving (that he didn't anticipate) that he wiped out all life above sea level except for the lucky eight. I guess torturing and killing an innocent victim for satisfaction is an improvement over that.

[Limnor]

I’d offer the sacrifice required the lamb’s death, while the cruelty and torture came from the humans carrying out the execution.

Therefore the mockery, spitting, and scourging functioned to reveal Jesus as the rejected righteous one of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, while the Levitical type was fulfilled in His sacrificial death.

[bill4long]

I’d offer the sacrifice required the lamb’s death, while the cruelty and torture came from the humans carrying out the execution.

Therefore the mockery, spitting, and scourging functioned to reveal Jesus as the rejected righteous one of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, while the Levitical type was fulfilled in His sacrificial death.

Just to be clear: you're saying the torture was not essential to the atonement? So if the Romans would have just struck his head off, or the Jews just stoned him to death, that would have been sufficient to calm the High God down about all the human misbehaving? Hmm, well, when Jesus was in the Garden "sweating, as it were great drops of blood", why didn't the High God just say, "okay, sonny boy, I'll arrange it so you just have to deal with a quick death. No gruesome ordeal." Or, how about, Jesus just pretends like he was suffering all those hours, if an indentification with Isaiah 53 was required, but actually wasn't required for the actual atonement. (Interestingly, a lot of very early Christians believed exactly that. Muslims believe it today.)

At any rate, what you seem to be claiming is that the Horrific Gruesome Ordeal added nothing to the actual "payment for human sin" but was merely a sign to link him to Isaiah 53 etc for identification purposes? Do I have that right?

If so, there is a problem, if we assume Isaiah is actually describing Jesus the way Christians claim, because the text says, "he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed." This seems to indicate a lot more than mere death - contrary to the Hebrew sacrificial typology - was involved. (You did not comment on the fact that the Yom Kippur event entailed two goats, not one.)

Another sidebar: of course, Orthodox Jews reject any identification of Jesus in Isaiah 52/53 and generally see the Servant Song #4 as referring to a "servant" who is a righteous branch of Israelites. (The four Servant Songs start in Isaiah 40:1.) Moreover, while Christians generally apply Song #4 to Jesus - even though the first three Servant Songs obviously cannot be Jesus - and take this as a literal description of his alledged sufferings, the Christian apologetics applied to 53:10 I find rather interesting. It says that this servant - whoever or whatever it is - will "see his descendents", that is, his zara. Literally, his semen, which the Hebrew Bible uses to describe literal semen, and lineal descendents. It is never used metaphorically. Christian apologists commonly claim this is a mere metaphor that refers to the followers of Jesus or some such. However, no other verse in Isaiah 53 is taken metaphorically by Christian apologists. This is blantant apologetic inconsistency. If Isaiah intended this isolated verse be about the servant's followers, why didn't he just say so? Why would he use a metaphor just for that?

Another sidebar: with regard to Psalm 22, which is cited by Christian apologists: as with so many apologetic citations, there are some snags. For example, verse 20: "deliver my soul from the sword." Why would Jesus say this whilst hanging on the cross? He may have been having a rough time of it, but the threat of a sword was not an issue. And what of, "O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer; and by night, but find no rest." What? Did Jesus cry into the night during his crucifixion? The devil is in the details, and this doesn't fit the New Testament narrative.

Interestingly, all of the proof texts that New Testament writers used to "prove" Jesus was a sinbearer, when context is considered, every last one of them fall apart. It's shameful.

Which reminds me of a old joke about Christian apologists: why did God create Mormons? So that Christians would know how Jews feel.

[Shulem]

I’d offer the sacrifice required the lamb’s death, while the cruelty and torture came from the humans carrying out the execution.

Therefore the mockery, spitting, and scourging functioned to reveal Jesus as the rejected righteous one of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, while the Levitical type was fulfilled in His sacrificial death.

It’s true that animal sacrifice didn’t require acts of brutality and torture that go above and beyond the customary slaughtering of animals for food sources. However, in comparison, crucifixion was a form of punishment that is simply unspeakable and is beyond the pale in which no mother or father would tolerate or allow that kind of brutality on their own offspring without putting up a fight. However, false gods (including Jehovah) delighted in suffering and the spilling of blood, moreover the smell of burning flesh for ritual purposes! That is pure evil!

The Mosaic law of sacrifice involved rituals that wasted the lives of different kinds of animals, not to be eaten, but slaughtered for rituals purposes only. Burnt offerings were given solely to the air so evil minded Jehovah could smell it for his own abominable pleasure.

Sick, sick, sick!

Jehovah. Was. Evil.

Just to be clear: ....

Excellent observations and you made several great points in exposing the Old Testament cult and false interpretations of early Christians in trying to supersede the old with something new and more exciting. Christians today are trapped within a religion that tells everyone else they will burn in hell unless they bow their knees to the imaginary god in whom they have faith.

Thank God I am not a Christian! My eyes are so, so, open.

Amen.

[LittleNipper]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented
For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

[Shulem]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented...

No, he did not. He knew nothing about the man Jesus who would be born a thousand years into the future. Nothing!

David was a murderer. David was a womanizer.

Psalms 22 was hijacked by the Christian religion being twisted and distorted into a classical mess to satisfy the needs and faith of Christians who still, to this day, await the coming of their imaginary Lord.

YOU, LittleNipper, will not see the Second Coming. I can assure you that.

[LittleNipper]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented...

No, he did not. He knew nothing about the man Jesus who would be born a thousand years into the future. Nothing!

David was a murderer. David was a womanizer.

Psalms 22 was hijacked by the Christian religion being twisted and distorted into a classical mess to satisfy the needs and faith of Christians who still, to this day, await the coming of their imaginary Lord.

YOU, LittleNipper, will not see the Second Coming. I can assure you that.

Well of course David didn't know entirely what he was writing ---- he was inspired by GOD through the HOLY SPIRIT. That's the way with prophecy. David was forgiven, and if David could be forgiven, anyone by GOD can be forgiven. HOWEVER, one must realize their failure and be willing ask for forgiveness.

[bill4long]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented

Well, no it doesn't just because you make a claim. You have to demonstrate that with evidence. And merely citing New Testament authors is not evidence, because obviously they had the text of Psalm 22 available to them. Moreover, the text many obviously metaphorical elements and could just as easily be applied to a lot of persecutions, including the Holocaust.

I noticed you didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:

1. Why is the subject asking God to "save my soul from the sword"? (v 21). How does this apply to Jesus?

2. The subject says, "My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent." (v 3). How does this apply to Jesus?

Mind you, both of these occur after the statement about being "forsaken" in verse 2. (Cf Mark 15:34 right before Jesus is said to have died.)

The details belie any sort of clean fit with the crucifixion narrative.

[Limnor]

Just to be clear: you're saying the torture was not essential to the atonement?
…
At any rate, what you seem to be claiming is that the Horrific Gruesome Ordeal added nothing to the actual "payment for human sin" but was merely a sign to link him to Isaiah 53 etc for identification purposes? Do I have that right?

I wouldn’t say the suffering added nothing, I’d say it was not described as part of the Levitical sacrifice. Leviticus gives us death and blood, and the scapegoat is seen as distinct from the sacrifice—the two goats you mention. But both describe the model that Jesus would follow. Separately, Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 give us the rejected righteous sufferer. The Christian interpretation is those themes—among others—converge in Jesus as the Messiah.

Whether that interpretation is persuasive to you is a different question. Im just describing that interpretation, not demanding that you accept it.