MDB Bible Study

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_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

Bump

No interest?

Ceeboo wrote:Exodus: The Mountain Of God

Egypt or Saudi Arabia?


https://youtu.be/YjrxHqNy5CQ


If you don't want to watch the entire 24 minute video, here are a few spots that are interesting.

At the 8:50 mark of the video
Exodus 15:27
27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

At the 12:10 mark of the video
Exodus 24:4
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

At the 15:25 mark of the video
Exodus 17:6
6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
_honorentheos
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Re: MDB Bible Study

Post by _honorentheos »

Image

There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple usually tied to a local story of how <insert name of person who settled the area or explored it prior to settlement> named it after <insert type of relationship a man might have with a woman that includes physical intimacy> usual a girlfriend or wife they have been away from a little too long. It makes sense, maybe. But it also helps to know Mollie was a slang term for prostitute back when. But why mess up a good story about a rock formation. Which is all it is, right? Anyone who sees anything else other than a rock formation should seek help.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Jersey Girl
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ceeboo wrote:Bump

No interest?

Ceeboo wrote:Exodus: The Mountain Of God

Egypt or Saudi Arabia?


https://youtu.be/YjrxHqNy5CQ


If you don't want to watch the entire 24 minute video, here are a few spots that are interesting.

At the 8:50 mark of the video
Exodus 15:27
27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

At the 12:10 mark of the video
Exodus 24:4
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

At the 15:25 mark of the video
Exodus 17:6
6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.


Interest.

First, I don't think you need to pick out points in a 24 minute (and change) video. If one is truly interested, they'll watch it. If not, well, they'll scribble all over the thread with off topic nonsense. I believe I see empirical evidence of that and I think it's a darn shame because I think that you are one of the most congenial guys in this place but if they get their jollies from smearing a thread who am I to deprive them of their hobby whatever that may be and for whatever purpose. That said...

I've only gone through this once. I took notes. ;-) On first viewing I have multiple questions and now have about 5 million windows open on my computer in an attempt to answer them. Okay, I'm lying. It's not 5 million.

Here is one question that I don't believe was answered in the video. Can you tell me what the date would be for the Exodus?

I need to know this to answer one specific question I have and I need to match dates or a date range to something else. Thanks!

I want to make multiple posts here with subtopics but I know Shades will merge them all because that's what he does to my posts when he doesn't recognize that I do that as a courtesy to those who wish to reply to one issue or point under a topic. So here goes...

First let me say that I don't doubt for a single second that the Exodus took place. I believe that the ancients took good care to preserve their oral history and while a few details may have gotten blurred or added to over the years, I take the orality of the tribes seriously and view them as precious evidence of the ancient cultures. Secondly, I don't require proof.

As a believer I want to explain how I approach a video like this (even one that is a brief 24 minutes long). I always take a skeptical approach which may sound weird on first take, but it's not. I want to know who the presenter is (not to worry I've got windows open on him), I want to know who he's working for (more windows), for what purpose, what funding is involved and where it's coming from. Why? The answer is easy, Ceebs. There are far too many unscrupulous people trying to bilk people (believers and non) out of their money. Think about the Shroud of Turin, the James Ossuary, I believe it was, and other such discoveries that turn out to be less than proof of various Biblical accounts though they might be evidence of ancient cultures or in some cases, outright forgeries.

Remember I don't require proof. I never have.

But I want to know first of all who is presenting and what their purpose is. For all I know, this guy is in cahoots with the Saudi Gov't and trying to make a buck off believers. For example, how do I know that what I am seeing is an excavation site and not a construction site? How do I know if the Saudis are building up something to take advantage of me and bilk me out of my billions? Okay, I am lying again. I don't have billions but you get the idea. Or how do I know they aren't going to use the alleged site as political leverage? Or how do I know this isn't Trump planning his exit strategy at a new Trump Resort in the Saudi desert?

So...I would first consider the source/motive and investigate as best as I can knowing that all I can find is what sources are willing to show me. Get it?

Lastly, I don't believe that God wants me spending tons of time chasing down Mt. Sinai any more than he wants me to chase down evidence for Noah's Ark or the Flood. It's fascinating to explore these things but you'll probably never get a "wow" out of me when it comes to proof/archaeological evidence because I'm not built that way and I don't believe that's how God wants me to live in this world.

But I'll chase it for a while if you would like to so long as I can budget my time well. And only because I think you're one of the most congenial, positive, and good-hearted posters in this community and I am willing to give this the time of day out of sheer respect for you and it doesn't hurt that I like you.

Oh and by the way...…….she seems to have survived and she's back.

;-)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: MDB Bible Study

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Putting the host/foundation on the back burner here for now. And I want to say that you didn't say what types of reactions or discussions you hoped might come from your original post, so I'm left to go my own way with it. As I stated previously, I take a skeptical approach. Critical thinking is important to that process. So here comes a beginning reaction to the video.

At 2:36 in the video, the host pinpoints the area as Jabal al Lawz.

At 3:13 he quotes the Old Testament that God descended upon Mt. Sinai mountain as a fire. Talks about the "blackened peaks" and later claims that the rocks are only black from the outside (How does he know that? Has he been inside of the mountain?) and offers that researchers disagree as to whether the black rocks are evidence of the Old Testament claim or if it's volcanic rock.

Okay, first of all, the last claim (that researchers disagree as to whether the black rocks is evidence of God descending the mountain as fire or etc. falls flat on it's face. No researcher is or can prove that God descending Mt. Sinai and blackened the rocks with fire. I know that sounds like I'm debunking the Old Testament claim but I am not. I am debunking the presenter's claim because it seems outrageous to me. If a researcher actually DID make the claim that the rocks were blackened by God, what evidence would s/he have for that? The Old Testament account and the fact that the rocks are black? That s/he's never seen black rock like that so it must be from God? That's not evidence for the claim.

There CAN'T be evidence for the claim because there's nothing to compare it to. And if you can't reproduce the effect based on the evidence, the science comes down like a house of cards in a tornado. If a researcher made such a claim another researcher would come right behind him/her with yet another claim of an undiscovered type of rock that would be followed by decades of tests and comparisons. So where does that leave the believer or non? Chasing down rock tests for the next several decades? Again, as a believer myself I don't think that's how my God wishes me to spend my life so I reject it at face value based on what I've stated.

Continuing...

Ceebs that entire area surrounding Jabal al Lawz or Midian (Midyan) is a geothermal system.

You can see here an abstract about Midyan granite in the area as well as maps.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6808000905

There are plenty more maps and descriptions to be found online. They were some of the windows I had open earlier.

So...not only do I see the host's claim about the researchers as a time draining waste that can never be proven, just on the surface I see that a reasonable answer to the blackened rock is that it's the result of volcanic/tectonic activity in the region and I don't see a need to prove it to begin with.

There are numerous relics from and excavations in the Holy Lands. Most of us are at least familiar with some of those. We have, for example, evidence of Pilate. (Pilate stones/inscriptions and I think...coins? I forget now.) How does evidence of Pilate testify to the crucifixion and resurrection?

It doesn't. The Gospels testify to it.

With regard to proving the Bible (which you made no claim to in your original post on the video), I see it as a waste of time and contrary to my faith in Christ. I can think of one figure in the New Testament for example, who required tangible proof of the resurrected Jesus because he doubted (look at the name of the foundation that this guy is sponsored by--if that's not Christian BAIT I don't know what is) and that was Thomas. In response, Christ Jesus stretched out his hands and let Thomas touch his wounds.

I could bring up numerous portions of scripture that have to do with faith and I don't think that any of them stipulate that "Faith is based on tangible empirical evidence". The Great Commission isn't followed by Go ye into all the world looking for evidence to show your fellow human beings so they believe Jesus.

As I have stated many times you either believe Jesus or you don't. You either believe that he stretched out his hands on the cross or you don't. And it's not up to me to go looking for solid proof other than what is revealed to me in scripture and in my own life, sharing with others who seem to be open to it.

So...I will still hang with you on this video topic, but a video like this doesn't wow me. It makes me want to pick it apart for the possible idolatry it tempts me to buy into (and good folks to spend their money donating to--the presenter had a GoFundMe for part of this video presentation--yet another window and no, I didn't waste time digging up issues about him. He's also a FOX News guy--national security analyst.) and spend my time researching various subtopics which is not how I live out my faith--which I admittedly stink at some days. :-)

I'm not even 5 minutes in and poking holes for the second time...just mentioning.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey Jersey Girl
Jersey Girl wrote:Here is one question that I don't believe was answered in the video. Can you tell me what the date would be for the Exodus?

No, I can't tell you (Like almost everything else in the Bible, the date of the exodus is contested/debated/denied/mocked) But I can offer my opinion on the date. My opinion is that the exodus happened around 1446bc. Here is how one can get to this date from the Bible:

First Kings 6:1
Solomon Builds the Temple
1 In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.


480 years prior to laying the foundation of temple - King Solomon undertook this event in the 4th year of his reign - so around 966bc - so this puts the exodus around 1446bc.

So...I would first consider the source/motive and investigate as best as I can knowing that all I can find is what sources are willing to show me. Get it?

Yes, I do.
I used that particular video because it was relatively short (There are many other sources/books that lend some fairly compelling evidence for Saudi Arabia as well - in my opinion)

It's fascinating to explore these things but you'll probably never get a "wow" out of me when it comes to proof/archaeological evidence because I'm not built that way and I don't believe that's how God wants me to live in this world.

Understood.

Oh and by the way...…….she seems to have survived and she's back.

;-)

That is FANTASTIC! :)
_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey again Jersey Girl
Jersey Girl wrote: And I want to say that you didn't say what types of reactions or discussions you hoped might come from your original post

I wasn't hoping for any particular reactions or discussions - I was adding another biblical topic to the "Bible study" thread because the thread seems to have lost it's traction.

I'm not even 5 minutes in and poking holes for the second time...just mentioning.

No problem - I appreciate your participation.
_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey honor
honorentheos wrote:
There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple

Imagine how difficult it would be to buy a bra for Mollie!
_Jersey Girl
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ceeboo wrote:Hey honor
honorentheos wrote:
There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple

Imagine how difficult it would be to buy a bra for Mollie!


You guys.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Jersey Girl »

I just messed up and lost my response to the dating of the Exodus. Call me block headed. :lol:

Regrouping...
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ceeboo wrote:Hey Jersey Girl
Jersey Girl wrote:Here is one question that I don't believe was answered in the video. Can you tell me what the date would be for the Exodus?

No, I can't tell you (Like almost everything else in the Bible, the date of the exodus is contested/debated/denied/mocked) But I can offer my opinion on the date. My opinion is that the exodus happened around 1446bc. Here is how one can get to this date from the Bible:

First Kings 6:1
Solomon Builds the Temple
1 In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.


480 years prior to laying the foundation of temple - King Solomon undertook this event in the 4th year of his reign - so around 966bc - so this puts the exodus around 1446bc.


Okay good! That wasn't a trick question. I wouldn't do that to you anyway. I just needed an approximate date to match it to something else. Hopping around the video now with my notes. I'll tell you why I needed an approx. date.

At 8:49 our host, Mr. Mauro, takes us to a new area and shares that Exodus 15:27 describes a place with 12 wells and 70 palms. So I am looking at the 12 wells in the video and thinking that for all I know those are 12 newly drilled wells or they're dummied up wells for the camera. I have no way of knowing which it might be because I don't know if the wells are being used or if they're dry. There's nothing there to make any sort of case there for me.

So geek girl over here investigated the palm trees (the windows I had open last night) and whether or not that particular stand of palm trees could have any basis in the Biblical account. According to one my sources, there is archaeological evidence that date desert palms were being cultivated going back to 5530-5532 bc. Also, the way that they grow and replenish would allow that the contemporary stand (grove?) of desert date palms in the video could be descendants of the ancient palms in the Exodus account.

So, that part is plausible.

But...even though it's plausible it still doesn't provide evidence that Sinai is in Saudi Arabia nor does it provide evidence of the Exodus.

So here we are again chasing down empirical evidence for the location (which is plausible) but we can never find empirical evidence for the Biblical account in terms or proving that God was present or interactive with Israel.

This is one of the reasons that I don't spend much time looking into something like this. But I do have more notes to post about here...


Oh and by the way...…….she seems to have survived and she's back.

;-)

That is FANTASTIC! :)


I am well and truly good! Okay I am well...not sure about the good part.

:mrgreen:

Will post more later. I am making up for so much lost time over here. House is a disaster from one end to the other. I need to break out a bulldozer.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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