Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

[_Analytics]

BULL...it was directly in regards to wages. And I did not ask the a question, I disputed a very clear assertion. He even qualified his assertion by stating the opposite; that if immigration stopped, wages would depress.

With regards to real wages, the question has been answered over and over again. With regards to nominal wages, that is the wrong question.

That said...how has buying power increased since immigration from Mexico increased? Start from say around 1960.

From 1960 to today, the annual GDP per capita has increased from $17,221 to $52,587(both figures in inflation-adjusted 2009 dollars).

[_EAllusion]

Markk, nominal wages are way up. When you talk about wages being stagnant, what you are referring to are real wages. All of the links you gave were referring to real wages and most of them explicitly so. Real wages are defined in terms of how much a unit of currency purchases. That's literally what real wages are.

Then on top of this, you don't need to have the national average of real median wages go up, even granting stagnation, to investigate whether immigration had a positive, negative, or neutral pull on wages.

You're just very confused about what you are arguing.

[_Hawkeye]

They wern't offered, the question was changed. Point me to where he answered my question in strict regard to wages?

At the top of page 12 several peer-reviewed studies were provided to you, including a White House report during the Bush administration. Since that time you've avoided responding to that evidence, even though it was something you specifically requested. If you had read even one of those studies you'd see the issue here is real wage growth and not nominal wage growth.

He has moved the goal post.

I see him trying to patiently explain something in different ways so that you will understand.

Yet I have given real comparisons to wages.

No, you have only given anecdotal evidence mingled with your uneducated interpretation of what those anecdotes mean.

What do you do for a living? How has illegal immigration made your wages rise, and if this immigration stopped...why would your wages go down?

Repeating these questions as if they haven't already been answered? In 2007 there was a crackdown on illegal immigrants in Arizona and according to the Wall Street Journal, the economy shrank by 2% and wages dropped. What do you make of that?

I am asking him to discuss real time how immigration effect his job...he can tell me that without google...

The only person I saw ripping off a slew of irrelevant google links was you and I don't see anywhere that he claimed immigration affected his wages so your question is just a red herring. Maybe he's a salaried employee.

and when I speak of google it is in context of you can find support for just about any argument

This response undermines your professed sincerity for asking for evidence in the first place because no matter what is presented, you're already prepare to reject it. And no, you're wrong. No one just presented you with "google links." They offered you peer-reviewed studies. Equating just any random google link with peer-reviewed studies tells us just how serious you are about having an honest discussion.

You have simply chosen to stand on one side of the argument and use only data that supports your view only.

I choose to stand on the side that is supported by empirical evidence, whereas you're relying on anecdote that is interpreted by a politically tweaked view of the world that has no support beyond the anecdotes of its loyalists. Your claim that you know low wages are tied to increased immigration because you observe an increase in Spanish billboards is illogical to say the least.

[_Hawkeye]

Markk, in the 15 year period between 1990 and 2005 the number of illegal immigrants skyrocketed from 2 million to 10 million. During that same period wages increased.

How do you explain that?

[_canpakes]

What kept you from paying a higher rate to laborers when you were doing work on your own home? Why did you choose the guys in the Home Depot parking lot as opposed to 'more skilled' folks?

It has nothing to do with skill, it was about ease and price. I needed some yard work done for a day, and it was cheaper. But I did take a big chance becasue they were not insured. Me being a hypocrite does not change the fact that illegal immigrants lower wages for construction workers...in fact it proves my point.

What do/did you do for a living? How does illegal immigration raise your wages.

Let's look at that question in the context of the example of your yard work. Res Ipsa provided the answer, in the post immediately following yours:

"You're suggesting that you saved money on your yard work, and that presumably helps your money go a little further? Cool."

For your situation, the use of non-resident laborers allowed you to stretch your purchasing power for whatever task you had... or allowed you to sub it out to someone else rather than do it yourself, given the comparison between how much you see your own time is worth, versus paying out-of-pocket for corner standers to do it instead. You obviously felt that this value proposition was a win for you, or you wouldn't have done this, right?

So, while this situation didn't directly increase your wealth through a paycheck, it did preserve your wealth to some degree, and allowed what you earn to be better directed towards meeting other goals.

And I didn't ask this question to try to point out any 'hypocrisy' in your situation. All that I'm pointing out is that this cycle begins with the employer, who hires illegal laborers because he is first attempting to either gain a competitive bidding edge (preserving his own wealth), or to allow himself to keep more dollars in his pocket versus payout for laborers (again, preserving his own wealth). What ends up happening, if the pool of illegal laborers is large enough - or if the pool of unskilled and willing legal residents is also large enough - is that a race to the bottom begins with wages, and every business becomes mired within the game in order to survive, even if they were not the ones to initiate it.

The mere presence of illegal laborers isn't so much the real problem as is/was the desire by business to gain a competitive edge by using it. It's not as if any illegal laborer ever forced an employer to hire him or her.

Given that, how do you want to fix the issue?

[_Gadianton]

Upon re-reading some of the posts here, I think Mark is looking for an example of cheap labor entering a particular field, and then wages in the field going up - in his field , carpentry, they went down. Am I right about that mark?

After I hire mark to put in a staircase, I'm out of cash and can't get a social worker. If I hire a illegal, now I have money to hire EA, and his wages have gone up. Does mark dispute that wages in OTHER Fields increase when cheap carpenters are available?

[_Markk]

Upon re-reading some of the posts here, I think Mark is looking for an example of cheap labor entering a particular field, and then wages in the field going up - in his field , carpentry, they went down. Am I right about that mark?

After I hire mark to put in a staircase, I'm out of cash and can't get a social worker. If I hire a illegal, now I have money to hire EAllusion, and his wages have gone up. Does mark dispute that wages in OTHER Fields increase when cheap carpenters are available?

Yes, and I said some wages go up and others down...I wrote each job or profession should be reviewed.

That said manufacturing and warehouse...have gone down...and that is huge along with construction and transportation (delivery).

We also need to look at it is much more than carpentry now...supervision and foreman types are now immigrants that will work for less money and bennie’s. It is simply getting worse and soon to be in your neighborhoods. As Ca goes, so does the country.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Upon re-reading some of the posts here, I think Mark is looking for an example of cheap labor entering a particular field, and then wages in the field going up - in his field , carpentry, they went down. Am I right about that mark?

After I hire mark to put in a staircase, I'm out of cash and can't get a social worker. If I hire a illegal, now I have money to hire EA, and his wages have gone up. Does mark dispute that wages in OTHER Fields increase when cheap carpenters are available?

Why would you hire a social worker? You can get one from the state. Also, if you have money to hire a personal carpenter to build you some stairs it's unlikely you'd need the services of someone who can show you the free-market value of maximizing government services.

- Doc

[_subgenius]

Markk, in the 15 year period between 1990 and 2005 the number of illegal immigrants skyrocketed from 2 million to 10 million. During that same period wages increased.

How do you explain that?

Bruh, correlation is not causation....but facts and understanding of simple economic principles would likely help your posts on this topic.
Except for the late 90s over the last 35 years have seen the vast majority of hourly wage lag far behind economy-wide productivity...typically an increase in productivity "causes" an increase in wages...but....that sort of "causation" can be dealt with from a policy position....for example, the fear of "full employment" bringing about an acceleration of inflation has basically displaced all of the economic growth that has occurred over the past several decades. Local government spending decreases are likely the most glaring manifestation of this policy. Monetary policy has a far greater influence on our economy and wages than immigration policy. You are confusing good politics with good economics...kinda like how Obama did for 8 years.

[_Hawkeye]

Bruh, correlation is not causation....but facts and understanding of simple economic principles would likely help your posts on this topic.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, but that isn't my argument. Markk's assertion is that diminished wages correspond specifically to the boom of illegal immigration, but that is obviously not true. He can't even get the basics of his premise correct. You should try to keep up.