Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

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_Rosebud
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Rosebud »

The relevant Utah statute from RI:

A person commits sexual abuse of a child if, under circumstances not amounting to rape of a child, object rape of a child, sodomy on a child, or an attempt to commit any of these offenses, the actor touches the anus, buttocks, or genitalia of any child, the breast of a female child, or otherwise takes indecent liberties with a child, or causes a child to take indecent liberties with the actor or another with intent to cause substantial emotional or bodily pain to any person or with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person regardless of the sex of any participant.


I think an attorney could argue that Mikelsen took indecent liberties with intent to arouse or gratify. The word "or" before "with intent to arouse or gratify" is important.
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_Rosebud
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Rosebud »

Jersey Girl,

In my experience, children report predators first getting the child to touch them and then telling the child that because the child took an action (the touch), the child is at fault and will get in trouble if he or she tells an adult. Convincing the child to touch them helps the predator keep the secret.

My recommendation would be to tell children when talking about the swimsuit areas (to keep things concrete) that both adults and children should be keeping their hands away from each other's swimsuit areas, but that if any touching happens, it is never the child's fault even if an adult says it is. I would even go so far as to tell children that if they ever touch an adult, it is impossible for it to be the child's fault no matter what an adult says and that since it's always the adult's fault, adults will lie to children to try to make them feel afraid to tell anyone. Then I would emphasize that since it is never the child's fault even if he or she did touch an adult under the swimsuit area, the child can tell someone they trust about it.

As lots of children aren't believed when they initially report and as sometimes it's not safe to report because some adults will shame them for doing touching, it's important to mention, too, that children should keep telling more people they trust until someone believes them. Good child abuse prevention programs will even help children think through a specific list of people they might report to if it ever happened.

I think that's almost the same as what you were saying?
Last edited by Guest on Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Rosebud
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Rosebud »

One thing that really bothers me about this is that Karren brought up the Pace report and now he's reporting on a crime (I think it's a crime and that an attorney could convincingly prosecute it as such even under the statute unless I'm reading the statute wrong) that is very minimal in comparison to most child sexual abuse.

This bugs me because if this were really all that happened to his daughter (although from experience I doubt that -- I would guess that if this happened a lot more also happened, but I don't know of course), his daughter would have been so much better off if her father just dropped it. I'm sure it was a very bad experience and deservingly made her feel awful, but it's not the kind of horrific traumatic report that is so common.

If this is all that happened, she could have moved forward with so little worry or concern about it. Instead, though, since her grandfather is a GA, it turns into this lifelong formative battle. This relatively minor incident (that I still see as an egregious crime) is now not only part of her personal identity, but her public identity.

If this is all that happened, she's just as much or more a victim of Mormon's obsessions with callings, status and authority as she is Mikelsen's abuse. Much more probably.

I mean, bringing up the Pace report and then telling this story publicly (about his own daughter!) that is so so so so so mild in comparison to the report is a blatant attack-the-church move. His daughter is a pawn in his hatred of the church. This should be about protecting kids, preventing abuse and getting the church to fess up and take action to make the church safer.

I suppose Karren's move might uktimately help, but right now I'm feeling even more disgusted with him. What a father.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

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_Mary
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Mary »

Rosebud, what the hell. I couldn't disagree with you more. Am at a coffee shop catching up on studies, when I get home will say why.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Rosebud
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Rosebud »

Mary wrote:Rosebud, what the hell. I couldn't disagree with you more. Am at a coffee shop catching up on studies, when I get home will say why.


And right now I'm thinking this is a classic example of exactly what an adult should not do when a child reports sexual abuse. Mormons need more education and training.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Mary »

I am finding your whole post quite disturbing, but maybe I am reading you wrong.

a crime... that is very minimal in comparison to most child sexual abuse.


Whilst I agree that this isn't the worst case of sexual molestation of a minor, it is still pretty awful. Ron showed how the policewoman led the child away from substantiating that Micklesen touched her around her vaginal area, but he still used her bottom to ingratiate himself to the extent that she is reminded of this if she puts anything in her back pockets.

She was labelled as promiscuous, or at least showing the same promiscuous propensity as *Darla Adams*. That has to have an effect on a child coming from a leader in a position of trust. The effects of that labelling would have been far reaching in terms of it's impact on her life. She wasn't believed and was told, in effect she was lying at her father's behest and the case was dropped. She was re-victimised in effect.

better off if her father just dropped it. I'm sure it was a very bad experience and deservingly made her feel awful, but it's not the kind of horrific traumatic report that is so common.


You don't know the impact it had on her, but my experience of molestation as a young adult where a guy grabbed my crotch, was considered serious enough in the context of his other activities, that he was prosecuted. It's a crime and it is up to the judge to rule in consideration of that crime should it ever get to court. I was old enough to know what was going on and old enough to cope with it. She wasn't. She was a kid for crying out loud. 3 to 6 years old.

Her responses to the interviewing officer indicate to me that she wasn't being led. She answered the questions as honestly as she could. She could have said, we were alone. She didn't.

If this is all that happened, she could have moved forward with so little worry or concern about it. Instead, though, since her grandfather is a GA, it turns into this lifelong formative battle. This relatively minor incident (that I still see as an egregious crime) is now not only part of her personal identity, but her public identity.


Guy using her butt crack to ingratiate himself after touching her inappropriately is a minor incident? What the “F” planet are you living on.


His daughter is a pawn in his hatred of the church. This should be about protecting kids, preventing abuse and getting the church to fess up and take action to make the church safer.


No. He doesn't hate the church. He hates the way the church handles and deals with pedophiles.

Good grief Rosebud.
right now I'm feeling even more disgusted with him. What a father.


Riiiight. Because he should have just rolled over and shut up where his daughter was concerned. What is her account of his response when she told him. How would you have responded if it had been your kid - your daughter? Put yourself in his shoes.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Chap
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Chap »

Rosebud wrote:... if this were really all that happened to his daughter (although from experience I doubt that -- I would guess that if this happened a lot more also happened, but I don't know of course), his daughter would have been so much better off if her father just dropped it. I'm sure it was a very bad experience and deservingly made her feel awful, but it's not the kind of horrific traumatic report that is so common.

If this is all that happened, she could have moved forward with so little worry or concern about it. ...

I suppose Karren's move might ultimately help, but right now I'm feeling even more disgusted with him. What a father.


I am disturbed by the suggestion that inappropriate and apparently deliberate sexualized contact with a child by a person in a position of power and influence such as a Mormon GA might best dealt with by saying nothing and 'moving on', especially where the perpetrator has admitted that something reprehensible happened by trying to put the blame on the child, as did Mickelson.

Experience suggests that when evidence of long-term and widespread misbehavior towards children finally comes to light on the part of men whose position and influence has protected them for years, many other former children come forward to reveal previously unsuspected incidents of abuse of various degrees of seriousness - all of which have been dealt with by parents and others in authority by saying nothing and 'moving on'. That is exactly what the perpetrators want, and it appears that a lot of the time, they get what they want, and are free to continue molesting other children.

The family of the victim may avoid some problems by taking no action - but the next child victim may not.
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Rosebud »

Chap wrote:
Rosebud wrote:... if this were really all that happened to his daughter (although from experience I doubt that -- I would guess that if this happened a lot more also happened, but I don't know of course), his daughter would have been so much better off if her father just dropped it. I'm sure it was a very bad experience and deservingly made her feel awful, but it's not the kind of horrific traumatic report that is so common.

If this is all that happened, she could have moved forward with so little worry or concern about it. ...

I suppose Karren's move might ultimately help, but right now I'm feeling even more disgusted with him. What a father.


I am disturbed by the suggestion that inappropriate and apparently deliberate sexualized contact with a child by a person in a position of power and influence such as a Mormon GA might best dealt with by saying nothing and 'moving on', especially where the perpetrator has admitted that something reprehensible happened by trying to put the blame on the child, as did Mickelson.

Experience suggests that when evidence of long-term and widespread misbehavior towards children finally comes to light on the part of men whose position and influence has protected them for years, many other former children come forward to reveal previously unsuspected incidents of abuse of various degrees of seriousness - all of which have been dealt with by parents and others in authority by saying nothing and 'moving on'. That is exactly what the perpetrators want, and it appears that a lot of the time, they get what they want, and are free to continue molesting other children.

The family of the victim may avoid some problems by taking no action - but the next child victim may not.



Let's go through this piece-by-piece.

1. Karren claims he was informed that his daughter had exhibited pre-sexualized behavior with an adult.

Karren's choices:

A. Confront and discipline the child
B. Seek outside expert advice to get better direction about what to do next
C. Confront and seek to discipline the adult.

Karren's Decision: A

Why this is important: it is very common for predators to blame children in an effort to silence them. Let me share an extreme example for the purpose of demonstrating the contrast between what Karren is reporting and what some victims report.

Extreme example: Child reports being forcibly raped in bishop's basement. After the rape, the bishop forces child to kill a kitten. Bishop tells child that child is evil for killing the kitten and that if child ever tells anyone else about what happened, everybody will know that child is evil because not only did the child have sex, but the child murdered a small and very cute animal.

Therefore: It is critical that adults learn that the first and highest priority in any reporting situation is to assure the child that the child has not done anything wrong no matter what happened and that everything that happened was the adult's fault, not the child's fault. The adult should immediately seek professional assistance regardless of the level of the report. Once assistance happens, C should take place.

Darren did eventually get to C -- after his ex-wife filed for divorce.


2. Child is accused of being promiscuous

Karren's decisions:

A. Feel very disturbed about the use of the word promiscuous and get very angry about the word.
B. Tell child that the word promiscuous is unjust and false that she is a good person.
C. Get the child treatment.
D. Tell child that the child needs to defend herself against unjust accusations.
E. Carefully investigate by asking child open-ended questions to find out what child might be worried about and if the child knows that the word promiscuous has been used to label her before taking any other action
F. Threaten to take action against the person who used the word promiscuous and use the child's testimony against that person
G. Publicly take action against the person who used the word promiscuous and use the child's testimony against that person.

What Karren did: A, B, D, F, G

Why this is important: A, D, F, and G all solidify the child's identity as promiscuous. The adult's objective should be to free the child from this identity, not further instill it.

What I would recommend for the sake of the child: Start with E. (Maybe Karren did. Maybe he didn't. We don't know.) Since it's obvious that the child can't possibly be promiscuous, it is in the child's best interest to be protected from that label. It might be too late for protection, however, so a careful and hopefully as least invasive as possible of an investigation should ensue. If it is found that the child is worried about being promiscuous then I would move on to C and then, with advice B. So far, the only one of these choices Karren seems to have taken was B, although he may not have even told her that she was a good person. He might have even reinforced the promiscuous label until the time of the divorce. We don't know. As far as I can tell, he moved right on to D which may have only serve to further instill the false identity of promiscuous in the child.


3. Child makes accusation of a crime against grandfather

Karren's Choices:

A. Put everything on hold because the child's treatment is of paramount importance.
B. Ensure the child gets months of treatment before any official action that may be detrimental to the child is taken.
C. Get the child in front of a professional to record the child's statement for court

Karren's Decision: C. In fact, if I'm remembering correctly from the child's testimony, the child remembered the crime, reported to her father and then only two+ weeks later was in front of an official giving recorded testimony. My selection: A and then B. C would come later and I don't know why it is part of divorce court unless Karren is afraid that the child might be in current danger of molestation by her grandfather. All I see Karren saying is that this happened a few times in the past and there is no further current danger. The inappropriateness of the situation in a divorce court without any concern about current contact with grandfather along with the other records the court had access to may be why the court responded to the accusation in the way they did.

Why didn't Karren help his daughter get treatment and then decide if his daughter was prepared to go through a criminal trial if he wanted to help Mormon abuse victims? It looks to me like Karren cared about Karren, not his daughter.


__________

The identity of this child's grandfather is important to you and to the church, but it is not important to the child. When a crime is committed, the most important person to take initial care of is the victim. Then, once the victim is cared for, to look for a valuable way to address the problems that are not the child's issue (in this case, the identity of her grandfather is not the child's issue or problem) in a manner that is the least detrimental to the child.

It is critical to remember that children are developing their identities and that the manner in which they develop identity will have a tremendous impact on their futures. If this is indeed what happened and the only thing that happened (although that seems very unlikely to me), then this child was not deeply traumatized by her grandfather despite the fact that what her grandfather did was a crime. This child would have been better off if she had been lovingly reassured that she was a good person and then told to do her school work. Then, the parents should have sought professional assistance where they would probably have been told that there might be something else going on and that further investigation should occur. As far as I can tell, Karren may not have further investigated this yet. He might still believe that this is all the grandfather did. Well, I suppose that could be true, but it is unlikely. My guess is that this story is pretty much hokey reasoning that has everything to do with divorce, or that it's a lot uglier than Karren is saying. I just don't know and Karren doesn't seem to know either because he's all wrapped up in the fact that somebody had a call with somebody else and used the word promiscuous and now his daughter must have her honor publicly defended (or something fairly out there like that).

What in the hell does this have to do with caring for abuse victims needs?

In a nutshell: If Karren had first sought professional help and taken care of his daughter's needs, he Karren could have found a more effective strategy to uncover child abuse in the church (I suggest one a few posts above) and could have used this case to assist. His presentation would have been more convincing and professional. Instead, he uses this case as personal vendetta and continues to build his daughters identity in a manner that is not in her best interest. She'll be lucky if she recovers from her childhood before she's 50. If Karren had done a better job and if this is all her grandfather did, she might not even need to recover.

I agree that perpetrators need to be spooked out so that other victims can come forward. I am not convinced, based on Karren's actions, that helping other victims (or any victim) is his motive. I would suggest that any adult wanting to publicly accuse a perpetrator to help other victims feel safe coming forward seek professional assistance and get treatment prior to taking action to ensure the the adult isn't taking action to benefit the self rather than victims.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Chap »

Rosebud wrote:I agree that perpetrators need to be spooked out so that other victims can come forward


I am glad you agree with the point that I wanted to make.

I am less interested than you in listing in detail the mistakes that Karren may be thought to have made, and in criticizing him as a parent (though of course on this board there is nothing to stop you doing so as much as you wish, and I am content with that). It seems to me, however, that the greater proportion of our indignation should probably be directed elsewhere.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Rosebud
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Re: Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

Post by _Rosebud »

Chap wrote:
Rosebud wrote:I agree that perpetrators need to be spooked out so that other victims can come forward


I am glad you agree with the point that I wanted to make.

I am less interested than you in listing in detail the mistakes that Karren may be thought to have made, and in criticizing him as a parent (though of course on this board there is nothing to stop you doing so as much as you wish, and I am content with that). It seems to me, however, that the greater proportion of our indignation should probably be directed elsewhere.



Right now I am neither convinced that Mikkelsen is a perpetrator or that Karren isn't. As far as I am concerned, they both could be innocent and they both could be guilty.

Karren stepped forward into the public light and I believe this discussion is important to the protection of future victims. It has needed to happen for decades.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
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