Oh crap! They found something in South America

[_mentalgymnast]

From what I've observed along the way, it appears that Jason is going to be hard pressed/out of luck trying to do this. Most of those that testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Book of Mormon are able to do so because of a spiritual witness they've received in answer to their prayers.

Moroni 3:5 pretty much lays it on the line. Who Knows, you have believers over a barrel on this. They can't demonstrate otherwise to your satisfaction. God and/or the HG are the conduits/purveyors of truth in this matter.

Most of the critics on this board were former members, or are still members. We are quite familiar with Moroni's promise in Moroni 10:3-5 (I assume that's the scripture you meant).

Thanks Satan (wow, I never thought I'd say that!) I was at work and in a hurry and I guess I was thinking of John 3:5.

[_mentalgymnast]

From what I've observed along the way, it appears that Jason is going to be hard pressed/out of luck trying to do this. Most of those that testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Book of Mormon are able to do so because of a spiritual witness they've received in answer to their prayers.

Moroni 3:5 pretty much lays it on the line. Who Knows, you have believers over a barrel on this. They can't demonstrate otherwise to your satisfaction. God and/or the HG are the conduits/purveyors of truth in this matter.

Most of the critics on this board were former members, or are still members. We are quite familiar with Moroni's promise in Moroni 10:3-5 (I assume that's the scripture you meant). Most of us also received what we thought was a spiritual confirmation, and we now realize the spiritual confirmation we received about the truthfulness of the book was the same one that other religious groups receive to confirm their beliefs.

Then there is no way that a believing member can demonstrate that the Book of Mormon is something other than simply a nineteenth century scriptural hoax. Every piece of evidence that I've seen brought forth so far by the apologists has been flipped by the skeptics. Two sides to every coin up to now. But, that doesn't prove one right and the other wrong.

Gosh darn, it still comes down to faith. Imagine that!

by the way, it's a bit difficult to demonstrate that the spiritual confirmation that you received in response to your humble and sincere prayer in regards to the Book of Mormon is qualitatively the same as spiritual experiences which have been described by those outside of the faith.

Regards,
MG

[_Jersey Girl]

Hi Jason,

Yeah Jersey Girl speaks of something pretty amazing. :-)

~dancer~

yea really? What is that?

A preponderance of evidence.

Talk is cheap.

When you have something to show me let me know. Allusions and tinkling cymbals is all I see here.

Yes, of course I will.

Well I am curious. Why all the mystery. If you have something let me see it. I am interested. If not then just say so.

Jason,

I answered you in the post above. When I have something to show you, I will. Should someone else do that, I'll confirm that it's what I had in mind when writing these posts.

[_truth dancer]

Hey MG... :-)

Most of those that testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Book of Mormon are able to do so because of a spiritual witness they've received in answer to their prayers.

When others testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Quran, or the Veda's, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Tao, the Course in Miracles, the Kabbalah, the I Ching, the Jaina Sutras, or any other number of religious texts, how are they able to do so?

Do you not think these billions of people have also prayed, fasted, pleaded with God, studied their various religions for years, perhaps a lifetime? Do you not think these people have strong witness of their truth? Do you not think they have had equally powerful spiritual experiences, revelations, visions, etc?

Just curious? ;-)

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

Hey MG... :-)

Most of those that testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Book of Mormon are able to do so because of a spiritual witness they've received in answer to their prayers.

When others testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Quran, or the Veda's, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Tao, the Course in Miracles, the Kabbalah, the I Ching, the Jaina Sutras, or any other number of religious texts, how are they able to do so?

Do you not think these billions of people have also prayed, fasted, pleaded with God, studied their various religions for years, perhaps a lifetime? Do you not think these people have strong witness of their truth? Do you not think they have had equally powerful spiritual experiences, revelations, visions, etc?

Just curious? ;-)

~dancer~

Yes I do. But as I said before, it is difficult if not impossible to qualitatively compare/analyze these experiences. One would be hard pressed to do so and then conclusively propound the idea that they are all the same experience with simply a different syntax attached to them.

In other words's, I don't know that you can use this argument to say that there isn't something qualitatively different about the Moroni 10:3-5 experience as it may compare to those experiences that people have in other religious traditions. To use this argument and then in turn discard the possible truth/validity of Moroni's promise is a shaky postition...at best. Totally fallacious at worst.

Regards,
MG

[_BishopRic]

Hey MG... :-)

Most of those that testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Book of Mormon are able to do so because of a spiritual witness they've received in answer to their prayers.

When others testify with power/conviction in the truth of the Quran, or the Veda's, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Tao, the Course in Miracles, the Kabbalah, the I Ching, the Jaina Sutras, or any other number of religious texts, how are they able to do so?

Do you not think these billions of people have also prayed, fasted, pleaded with God, studied their various religions for years, perhaps a lifetime? Do you not think these people have strong witness of their truth? Do you not think they have had equally powerful spiritual experiences, revelations, visions, etc?

Just curious? ;-)

~dancer~

Yes I do. But as I said before, it is difficult if not impossible to qualitatively compare/analyze these experiences. One would be hard pressed to do so and then conclusively propound the idea that they are all the same experience with simply a different syntax attached to them.

In other words's, I don't know that you can use this argument to say that there isn't something qualitatively different about the Moroni 10:3-5 experience as it may compare to those experiences that people have in other religious traditions. To use this argument and then in turn discard the possible truth/validity of Moroni's promise is a shaky postition...at best. Totally fallacious at worst.

Regards,
MG

But when listening to each describe their experiences, they give extremely similar reports. To me, rather than label the possibility that the experiences are the same a "shaky position," I would think a shaky position is to call them different experiences.

[_no thanks]

It doesn't matter what was found in Peru. The book is a 19th century copy and paste job by multiple authors.

\

Evidence please

I agree, show me the plates. Until then, I'll use Occam's Razor, and have say the obvious answer is likely the correct answer. It's a product of the 19th century.

[_truth dancer]

Hey MG...

Yes I do. But as I said before, it is difficult if not impossible to qualitatively compare/analyze these experiences.

Well, yes and no. :-)

There has been some amazing research on spiritual experience... have you read, Why God Won't Go Away?

While obviously we can't know exactly how each and every spiritual experience manifests, it seems fairly clear folks from the religions of the world experience similar neurological phenomenon during these types of experiences.

Nevertheless, what we can know is how one individual describes their spiritual experiences while they have been a believer in more than one religion. Or as a believe and a non-believer.

So far as I can tell, literally everyone who was a believing Mormon and had what they considered powerful spiritual experiences, witnesses of the HG, and even inspiration and personal revelation, and who no longer believes in the LDS church can compare their experiences before and after belief. So far I have not heard of anyone in this circumstance who asserts their experience as an LDS believer is different than other "spiritual" experiences, some even having the same types of experiences that have nothing to do with religion or belief.

One would be hard pressed to do so and then conclusively propound the idea that they are all the same experience with simply a different syntax attached to them.

I do not think it is quite so difficult.

In other words's, I don't know that you can use this argument to say that there isn't something qualitatively different about the Moroni 10:3-5 experience as it may compare to those experiences that people have in other religious traditions. To use this argument and then in turn discard the possible truth/validity of Moroni's promise is a shaky postition...at best. Totally fallacious at worst.

Again, I do not see it quite the same. However, the fact is, folks in virtually all religions of the world believe their experiences are representative of truth. Just as LDS believe theirs are better/more powerful/more true/ more Godly/more something, other religions dismiss the LDS witness as something other than from God.

The point being... relying on one's spiritual experiences as some ultimate form of truth seems VERY suspect given that everyone believes theirs is representative of truth and no one seems to be able to support their belief with anything other than assertion.

Ya know?

:-)

~dancer~

[_harmony]

The point being... relying on one's spiritual experiences as some ultimate form of truth seems VERY suspect given that everyone believes theirs is representative of truth and no one seems to be able to support their belief with anything other than assertion.

I would say that virtually no Mormon gives a flying fig about other people's spiritual experiences. Mormons are notorious for their narrow worldview. The only worldview Mormons care about is their own. Mormons don't even acknowledge that there is even a remote possibility there could be spiritual experiences on a like level with their own.