(some!!!!) Mormon & exmormon men and the internet
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_moksha
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 22508
- Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm
I just flipped through this, so I don't know if the whole premise was tongue in check or not. I shudder to think of a selective filter that would only pick up on horn doggery from LDS or former LDS males, while ignoring its inherent nature in the whole of Mankind.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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_beastie
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 14216
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am
No, this isn't tongue in cheek, and it isn't just about simple horn-doggery. Jersey Girl helped to crystalize what bothers me about a certain type of horndoggery, and it's the condescension.
I thought of a "safe" way to demonstrate this, since I've seen it on other boards, as well.
On ZLMB, someone started a thread about the former oral sex ban. A new female LDS poster got on the thread and shared how silly she thought the ban was, and how much she and her husband enjoyed oral sex. She didn't post anything titillating at all. In response to this, a male LDS poster who had been defending the oral sex ban (because it - ironically - demeans women) embedded rude sexualized talk to her in his post, like "if you can talk around your full mouth". WTF??? It seemed so clear to me that he viewed women as either Madonna or Whore, and if you were playing the "whore", then you get to say whatever the heck you want to them. Again, WTF??? Another topic on Z that was guaranteed to bring out inappropriate sexualized comments was whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives. But this time it was immediately trying to act as if even bringing UP the topic was the equivalent of engaging in inappropriate sexualized topics, and responding to it with extreme "reciprocal" sexualization.
So it's not horndoggery - it's horndoggery used to diminish or demean. There is a difference. Or it's horndoggery that suddenly "pops" up because a female poster mentioned sex somehow in context - and that means she's a whore, not madonna.
I experienced an extreme example of this years ago, when I first participated on the private email exmormon group. We did have a few "fringie" Mormons among us. As I mentioned, I do think sexuality is an intriguing subject, and read quite a bit about it at one point. The impact of Mormonism on sexuality was a common topic, anyway. So I wrote what I meant to be a humorous post about it all called "Holy Sex". My primary point was that, as a Mormon, I believed HF had sex in a certain, uber-righteous, uber-spiritual way (hey, he's god), and church leaders gave us the impression that there are certain sexual acts that are "dirty" even within marriage, so I became convinced there was such a thing as Holy Sex - sex like HF must have. He wouldn't have dirty fantasies, or want oral sex, evidently. It became a problem for me in that I couldn't really enjoy sex due to this concern (of course, being married to a verbally abusive man didn't help, either). This post apparently labeled me "whore" to some of the men on the list, and I immediately got all sorts of provocative comments in response. The piece-de-resistance was when one poster (a fringie Mormon) actually wrote a short pornographic story with ME as the star. I laughed it off, because I was still messed up from being verbally abused by my exhusband all those years, and my boundaries were eroded. Now, of course, I'd smack the s**t outta the guy.
Speaking of boundaries, which Jersey Girl first brought up to me, it does seem that this is part of the issue. We don't really know each other by communicating on internet boards, but sometimes we feel a (false) sense of intimacy with one other. And sharing such a crucial piece of history, along with the natural bonding effect of Mormonism, also creates a false sense of familiarity. I also wonder if being taught your entire life that you have certain rights and privileges that women can never have breeds a form of contempt, even if you try to consciously avoid that.
Another thought, possibility - I do believe that LDS people may have arrested, so to speak, sexual development, due to the extreme control that the LDS church exerts on this point. If you never allow yourself to explore your sexual thoughts because it might lead to masturbation, or God reads your mind and it makes him mad, then you never really get to know who you are, sexually. So as an adult, you might be "exploring" mentally in the same way that 12-14 year olds do.
I don't know, I may be totally off base here, I'm thinking out loud, trying to figure out a phenomenon I've noticed over the years. As I said, I haven't seen this on other, nonLDS boards I've participated on. Have I really just had extremely unusual experiences with internet boards??? Let's just say that if I really needed/wanted to talk about some sexual topic in a serious way, an LDS board is the last place I'd go.
I thought of a "safe" way to demonstrate this, since I've seen it on other boards, as well.
On ZLMB, someone started a thread about the former oral sex ban. A new female LDS poster got on the thread and shared how silly she thought the ban was, and how much she and her husband enjoyed oral sex. She didn't post anything titillating at all. In response to this, a male LDS poster who had been defending the oral sex ban (because it - ironically - demeans women) embedded rude sexualized talk to her in his post, like "if you can talk around your full mouth". WTF??? It seemed so clear to me that he viewed women as either Madonna or Whore, and if you were playing the "whore", then you get to say whatever the heck you want to them. Again, WTF??? Another topic on Z that was guaranteed to bring out inappropriate sexualized comments was whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives. But this time it was immediately trying to act as if even bringing UP the topic was the equivalent of engaging in inappropriate sexualized topics, and responding to it with extreme "reciprocal" sexualization.
So it's not horndoggery - it's horndoggery used to diminish or demean. There is a difference. Or it's horndoggery that suddenly "pops" up because a female poster mentioned sex somehow in context - and that means she's a whore, not madonna.
I experienced an extreme example of this years ago, when I first participated on the private email exmormon group. We did have a few "fringie" Mormons among us. As I mentioned, I do think sexuality is an intriguing subject, and read quite a bit about it at one point. The impact of Mormonism on sexuality was a common topic, anyway. So I wrote what I meant to be a humorous post about it all called "Holy Sex". My primary point was that, as a Mormon, I believed HF had sex in a certain, uber-righteous, uber-spiritual way (hey, he's god), and church leaders gave us the impression that there are certain sexual acts that are "dirty" even within marriage, so I became convinced there was such a thing as Holy Sex - sex like HF must have. He wouldn't have dirty fantasies, or want oral sex, evidently. It became a problem for me in that I couldn't really enjoy sex due to this concern (of course, being married to a verbally abusive man didn't help, either). This post apparently labeled me "whore" to some of the men on the list, and I immediately got all sorts of provocative comments in response. The piece-de-resistance was when one poster (a fringie Mormon) actually wrote a short pornographic story with ME as the star. I laughed it off, because I was still messed up from being verbally abused by my exhusband all those years, and my boundaries were eroded. Now, of course, I'd smack the s**t outta the guy.
Speaking of boundaries, which Jersey Girl first brought up to me, it does seem that this is part of the issue. We don't really know each other by communicating on internet boards, but sometimes we feel a (false) sense of intimacy with one other. And sharing such a crucial piece of history, along with the natural bonding effect of Mormonism, also creates a false sense of familiarity. I also wonder if being taught your entire life that you have certain rights and privileges that women can never have breeds a form of contempt, even if you try to consciously avoid that.
Another thought, possibility - I do believe that LDS people may have arrested, so to speak, sexual development, due to the extreme control that the LDS church exerts on this point. If you never allow yourself to explore your sexual thoughts because it might lead to masturbation, or God reads your mind and it makes him mad, then you never really get to know who you are, sexually. So as an adult, you might be "exploring" mentally in the same way that 12-14 year olds do.
I don't know, I may be totally off base here, I'm thinking out loud, trying to figure out a phenomenon I've noticed over the years. As I said, I haven't seen this on other, nonLDS boards I've participated on. Have I really just had extremely unusual experiences with internet boards??? Let's just say that if I really needed/wanted to talk about some sexual topic in a serious way, an LDS board is the last place I'd go.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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_antishock8
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2425
- Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am
I will now enlighten everyone with my brilliant insight. Ready?
LDS people, in genereal, are among the red neckiest people in the world. From potluck (popularity of Jell-O and Cream of Whatever Concoction) to all the stupid crap they wear to church on Sundays (and I'm talkin' K-Mart shirts, brown nylon slacks, and clip-on ties), they're ill-mannered in general. They lack culture and appropriate boundaries found throughout polite society. Sometimes they're exposed to culture because of their missions, but they think they're better than that culture because of their religious ideology. You take stupid uncultured assholes and tell them they're better than everyone... Well, they just don't know how to act.
So. Combine that with men are being told that they're going to be gods, that they have authority over their women, that they have more power in their pinky finger than the President. Does it surprise anyone that LDS and ex-LDS men are objectify women like crap? 12 year-old boys are being told they're going to rule over their own planets, and does it really surprise anyone that these boys turn into men with no sense of propriety? That crap you saw bein' rounded up in El Dorado was NOT far from what would be going down with LDS guys if they hadn't had their pee-pees smacked down. Dudes are dirty. Men are dogs. Throw Mormonism on top that and it's like throwing moonshine on a bondfire. The damn rednecks start a whoopin' and a hollerin'.
Anyway, you take their restrictions on what's a sin and what isn't, because they're such social retards they just run wild. Like a bull in a candy shop! <-Ha. That's some serious metaphor-mixing. You see that? That was awesome.
When Mormon and ex-Mormon women respond they a) like the attention and b) are experiencing social retardation, too. It's kind of like when some silly skank-ho and her ho friend ho it up in front of a bar or camera. Everyone goes crazy. They also happen to be largely in their 20's. They dudes going crazy have popped collars and sideways caps. The ho's have spray-on tans and bleached hair. They're young. They get that out of their system. The ex-Mo's generally haven't had that Spring Break experience, and don't understand why it's ridiculous to ho it up on a message board, or at 30-something parties, or... Well, you get the point.
Sincerely,
Professor AntiShock8 (I'm just over here keepin' it reaaaahl)
LDS people, in genereal, are among the red neckiest people in the world. From potluck (popularity of Jell-O and Cream of Whatever Concoction) to all the stupid crap they wear to church on Sundays (and I'm talkin' K-Mart shirts, brown nylon slacks, and clip-on ties), they're ill-mannered in general. They lack culture and appropriate boundaries found throughout polite society. Sometimes they're exposed to culture because of their missions, but they think they're better than that culture because of their religious ideology. You take stupid uncultured assholes and tell them they're better than everyone... Well, they just don't know how to act.
So. Combine that with men are being told that they're going to be gods, that they have authority over their women, that they have more power in their pinky finger than the President. Does it surprise anyone that LDS and ex-LDS men are objectify women like crap? 12 year-old boys are being told they're going to rule over their own planets, and does it really surprise anyone that these boys turn into men with no sense of propriety? That crap you saw bein' rounded up in El Dorado was NOT far from what would be going down with LDS guys if they hadn't had their pee-pees smacked down. Dudes are dirty. Men are dogs. Throw Mormonism on top that and it's like throwing moonshine on a bondfire. The damn rednecks start a whoopin' and a hollerin'.
Anyway, you take their restrictions on what's a sin and what isn't, because they're such social retards they just run wild. Like a bull in a candy shop! <-Ha. That's some serious metaphor-mixing. You see that? That was awesome.
When Mormon and ex-Mormon women respond they a) like the attention and b) are experiencing social retardation, too. It's kind of like when some silly skank-ho and her ho friend ho it up in front of a bar or camera. Everyone goes crazy. They also happen to be largely in their 20's. They dudes going crazy have popped collars and sideways caps. The ho's have spray-on tans and bleached hair. They're young. They get that out of their system. The ex-Mo's generally haven't had that Spring Break experience, and don't understand why it's ridiculous to ho it up on a message board, or at 30-something parties, or... Well, you get the point.
Sincerely,
Professor AntiShock8 (I'm just over here keepin' it reaaaahl)
Last edited by Guest on Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.
Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
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_beastie
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 14216
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am
Wow. There may be more truth than poetry in your post, antishock.
I definitely agree with this part:
I have to digest the red-neckie part. I'll come back later with more thoughts on it. But I will say that your post, at first glance, seems to get right at the core of the issue I've been trying to identify.
I definitely agree with this part:
It's kind of like when some silly skank-ho and her ho friend ho it up in front of a bar or camera. Everyone goes crazy. They also happen to be largely in their 20's. They dudes going crazy have popped collars and sideways caps. The ho's have spray-on tans and bleached hair. They're young. They get that out of their system. The ex-Mo's generally haven't had that Spring Break experience, and don't understand why it's ridiculous to ho it up on a message board, or at 30-something parties, or... Well, you get the point.
I have to digest the red-neckie part. I'll come back later with more thoughts on it. But I will say that your post, at first glance, seems to get right at the core of the issue I've been trying to identify.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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_truth dancer
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4792
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm
Hey Beastie,
Absolutely!
While I joined the church as a child, my father is agnostic so was raised in a home with very different attitudes towards women as those in the LDS church.
My father exemplifies the epitome of gentlemanly conduct. He truly believes in respecting women and abhors any type of denigration or objectification. He never had issues with power and control, assigning roles to women, or needing authority in the home. He is a fantastic man with incredibly strong values and extremely high standards of integrity and would never consider being disrespectful or unseemingly in any way. His views have nothing to do with God's commands but are about human decency and respect towards others.
Virtually all the men in my family, extended family, all male friends, coworkers, behave similarly. What I see on these forums is very unique in my experience.
I don't participate on too many MBs but do participate on many blogs and am fairly familiar with many online forums, and have never observed the same type of "lighthearted" disrespect of which you speak anywhere else except on LDS boards.
I do think there are some unhealthy teachings regarding sex in the LDS church, but more than anything I believe the teachings that women were created for men, that men will get to have a harem in the next life, (just listen to some of the men on MAD), that men have the "power of God", that women are to obey, (I mean follow) their husbands, etc. etc. are at the root of the unusual behavior.
Regardless of how many times leaders condescendingly tell the church women are wonderful, the reality is the teachings and doctrine of the church create a very clear hierarchy where women are at the very bottom.
~dancer~
Absolutely!
Sorry, scottie, in my experience, unless they're really, really good at hiding it, this isn't just normal male behavior. Maybe normal teenage male behavior. So maybe the question is: are Mormons more prone to stay "stuck" in an earlier developmental phase, in regards to male/female interactions
While I joined the church as a child, my father is agnostic so was raised in a home with very different attitudes towards women as those in the LDS church.
My father exemplifies the epitome of gentlemanly conduct. He truly believes in respecting women and abhors any type of denigration or objectification. He never had issues with power and control, assigning roles to women, or needing authority in the home. He is a fantastic man with incredibly strong values and extremely high standards of integrity and would never consider being disrespectful or unseemingly in any way. His views have nothing to do with God's commands but are about human decency and respect towards others.
Virtually all the men in my family, extended family, all male friends, coworkers, behave similarly. What I see on these forums is very unique in my experience.
I don't participate on too many MBs but do participate on many blogs and am fairly familiar with many online forums, and have never observed the same type of "lighthearted" disrespect of which you speak anywhere else except on LDS boards.
I do think there are some unhealthy teachings regarding sex in the LDS church, but more than anything I believe the teachings that women were created for men, that men will get to have a harem in the next life, (just listen to some of the men on MAD), that men have the "power of God", that women are to obey, (I mean follow) their husbands, etc. etc. are at the root of the unusual behavior.
Regardless of how many times leaders condescendingly tell the church women are wonderful, the reality is the teachings and doctrine of the church create a very clear hierarchy where women are at the very bottom.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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_truth dancer
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4792
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm
So once again men are berated for acting like men. Note to women out there...we ARE men!!! We are not broken women!! Don't expect us to act like women. Don't get disgusted that we are acting like men. It's what we do.
What would happen if I were to walk into a room full of crying women who were "venting" and told them that they disgust me with their crying!! Why can't they act more like men?!?!? Men don't cry!!!
I'll tell you what would happen. The women would rip me to shreds for DARING to try and take away their womanhood!!
Yet, a woman has NOOO problem telling men to stop acting like men, and to act more like women...you know, don't get turned on by sex talk and don't make juvenile comments about the sex talk. After all, women don't do this!!
Well, guess what...WE ARE MEN!! WE GET TURNED ON!!! WE ALSO ACT JUVINIELLE FOR A LAUGH SOMETIMES!!
Why do you women revel in the challenge to rid us of everything that makes us men? Why the constant need to expect us to act like and turn us into women??
(Note: Sorry to all the men out there whom I have taken upon myself to stereotype men.)
Hi Scottie,
Actually I think you speak to the problem in a subtle way.
The thing is, the type of behavior of which Beastie speaks is not what makes a man.
No one wants to turn men into women, but there is, in my opinion, a need to treat people with decency and respect.
There are men who believe that being a man means living with honor and integrity.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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_beastie
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 14216
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am
TD,
Thanks for sharing that you've noticed the same thing. It's nice to know I'm not imaging this, nor am I just being silly and ignorant regarding how men are, in general.
Thanks for sharing that you've noticed the same thing. It's nice to know I'm not imaging this, nor am I just being silly and ignorant regarding how men are, in general.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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_wenglund
- _Emeritus
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_Jersey Girl
- _Emeritus
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wenglund wrote:Does it strike anyone else as hugely ironic for (someone!!!!) to speak of the supposed sexual disrespect and condescension of (some!!!) LDS and ex-LDS men while categorizing them as "horn-doggy" and "juvenile" and peppering her posts with "WTF?"?
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
If I am not mistaken, the "horn-dog" comments were injected by Bond. Please review the thread. What beastie is talking about is the difference between male posters being enamored of one or more female posters vs disrespecting/degrading them as females.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Chinese Proverb
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_karl61
- _Emeritus
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- Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm
I think that subconciously and consciously men want to spread there genes. I think that human's adapt to new enviornments and men realize that the internet is just like a bar and for them even safer - it can be like anonymous sex. In the last forty years we have gone from a sexualized society to a pornofied one. Putting the image of a curvey female on a retina will get a response. Men are men. Men are also homo-sapiens and also primates. During the history of man, men have not been teased like they have been in the last fifty years with new technology. I think we are in a phase that needs to be reevaluated repeatedly as technology creates new ways of flirting.
regarding the LDS church - I have very mixed emotions regarding what they say. I only know from my experience that I needed to be in a loving environment when taught about sex. I found porn in my home as a child and experienced a huge rush (sexual abuse) and did everything I could to repeat that rush. It turned into a disease as I got older the rest is a tragic story. That's what happens when you let people like Larry Flynt teach you things. I think all men have their own story and baggage as to why they do things.
I know one time I posted some photos as a response to a post by moniker but she told me right away it embarrassed her and I took them down and said I was sorry. I meant it to be funny but I guess it wasn't taken that way. As to flirting - people actually flirt on this board? are there swinger parties going on that I'm not aware of?
regarding the LDS church - I have very mixed emotions regarding what they say. I only know from my experience that I needed to be in a loving environment when taught about sex. I found porn in my home as a child and experienced a huge rush (sexual abuse) and did everything I could to repeat that rush. It turned into a disease as I got older the rest is a tragic story. That's what happens when you let people like Larry Flynt teach you things. I think all men have their own story and baggage as to why they do things.
I know one time I posted some photos as a response to a post by moniker but she told me right away it embarrassed her and I took them down and said I was sorry. I meant it to be funny but I guess it wasn't taken that way. As to flirting - people actually flirt on this board? are there swinger parties going on that I'm not aware of?
I want to fly!