LDS Apologetics Operating Costs Are More Than $7,000,000

[_Jason Bourne]

Sigh.

Vintage Scratch.

Thank you. My point exactly.

FARMS doesn't have an operating budget in the tens of milions, nor one of ten million, nor anywhere close to that amount.

There you have it Scratch.

I wasn't sent to "interrogate" a wavering member. I was asked to meet with him, once, to see whether I could help with some of his concerns.

According to Scratch you admitred to being an "agent" of the SMC or whatever it is called.

But Gadianton's praise of Scratch's "objectivity" was priceless

It certainly gave me a laugh. It is worthy of a sig line.

[_Jason Bourne]

Of course, it is practically impossible for us to corroborate either version. So, all we have is your word, and your characterization of what he is saying. The fact that you are there doesn't cut it, since you are neither obliged to disclose the truth nor open to being fact checked by one of us.

Sure Dr Peterson could be lying. But he is an insider. Scratch is what.....? Also I do not see Dr Peterson engaging in hyperbolic smears and innuendos. I think I trust him more.

[_Trevor]

It certainly gave me a laugh. It is worthy of a sig line.

And that would be the appropriate response, not so much the one where the person complains about people calling him "corrupt to the core."

[_Gadianton]

Jason,

As has been pointed out by others, DCP's self-deprecating humor is the most severe of the hyperbole going around these boards. It's very bad, because it paints the critics falsely to be just what his audience expects. I'll admit, not on this topic, but on a couple of other topics I've disagreed with Scratch. But I just don't see much hyperbole coming from him. I think his presentations skills are sometimes counted against him when they shouldn't be.

I don't think DCP is a bad person, I've never said he is. I do think he's weak at times and instead of standing up for what he believes in, he tip-toes so as not to create waves within his circle of sympathizers. But that doesn't make him bad. Bad is, for instance, some of his friends. Such as, the ones who sent rcrocket down the river. DCP stood on the sidelines and probably tried to be diplomatic both ways and I can't see him taking satisfaction in throwing one of his own under a bus.

But for some of his friends, this is the root of their identity as church members.

[_Mister Scratch]

FARMS doesn't have an operating budget in the tens of milions, nor one of ten million, nor anywhere close to that amount.

There you have it Scratch.

Jason, I hate to say it, but you simply cannot stop with the questioning when you get a reply from DCP like this. Often, he uses sophistry or semantics to block whatever answer it is you're trying to get. For example, he carried on endlessly about how he never gets any money for his apologetics and so forth. But, after some digging, and after some crucial tips from anonymous informants, I discovered that this wasn't the case at all. In fact, DCP and other apologists *have* been paid to do Mopology.

Likewise: I think that The Good Professor is playing semantic games with the phrase "operating budget." See, I interpret that phrase to mean, "The amount of money necessary for FARMS to operate." Obviously, this would include the many millions of dollars that have been pumped into it over the years. I don't think I am "spinning" or being inaccurate in the least. I would urge you to notice that DCP rather staunchly avoided giving even a ballpark figure as to FARMS's "operating budget", regardless of whether you interpret this to be a over-the-years lump sum kind of thing, or a yearly account of expenses, or whatever.

I wasn't sent to "interrogate" a wavering member. I was asked to meet with him, once, to see whether I could help with some of his concerns.

According to Scratch you admitred to being an "agent" of the SMC or whatever it is called.

He did. This is a direct quote from a post of his on the FAIR/MAD board:

I was once sent out, a number of years ago, as a kind of "agent"of the Strengthening Church Members Committee. My mission? To try to help a member of the Church whose apostasy was threatening his marriage and causing anguish to his very active wife, children, and parents. (The wife and parents, and his stake president, has asked for help.) The weapons of choice? Talking with him for about four hours in Salt Lake City, in the presence of his wife and stake president, and recommending some readings."

(emphasis added)

As you can see, by his own admission, he was an "agent" of the SCMC.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

What is FARMS yearly operating budget?

It's none of your business.

Just like tithing.

Priceless.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Even on this message board, I suspect, there are probably a few reasonable people who don't regard me as corrupt to the core.

After reading what you and your mo'pologetic rival crocket did to GoodK, I regard you not as corrupt, but rotten to the core and unless god has a sick sense of humor, it proves that callings such as yours to the position of bishop are not divine.

[_ludwigm]

Jason !

Please shorten Your long "BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..."
(Or break it. Two shorter "BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" are worth of one long.)
It makes the page unreadable.


Thanks.
- - - Ludwig

[_Daniel Peterson]

But many LDS apologists make it their business to find out the financial details of UTLM and other ministries which are critical of the LDS church. They'd do better to answer the arguments rather than smear the people with whom they disagree.

That may or may not be true. I have no idea. It's not true of me, though. I have no interest in the subject, and have never sought to know details of any anti-Mormon organization's budget.

On which point? About the seven million? Or your conviction that you understand Scratch's motivations and personal psychology?

I have no idea what Scratch's motivations and personal psychology might be. I find his hostile obsession with me wholly bizarre.

It's possible that it goes back to an episode on the board formerly known as FAIR, where I caught him in what I'm quite confident -- though not absolutely certain -- was a brazen lie. I called him on it, and, in the aftermath, the moderators there evidently banned him from the message board. He seems to have held a burning personal grudge against me ever since. If I had to guess what gave rise to his perverse fascination with me, that would be it.

Corrupt to the core? Is that your interpretation? Interesting. Personally, I did not get the sense that you were being accused of utter corruption.

Nor did I. But the notion that I would lie outright about the order of magnitude of the Maxwell Institute budget seems to assume the possibility that I'm a fundamentally dishonest person.

I have no idea how your chat went

You have precisely as much of an idea as Scratch does.

I don't know that you have been any less malicious in your assessment of Scratch than he has been toward you.

I actually suspect you mean that seriously.

Count up the number of threads I've begun here (and, just to be generous, on the board formerly known as FAIR) criticizing Scratch. Count up the number of threads Scratch has begun here criticizing me. Subtract the latter number from the former number. If the resulting figure is positive, that will suggest that I'm at least as malicious toward Scratch as he is toward me. If the resulting figure is negative, however, that will suggest . . . otherwise.

If you're still in doubt, read through all of the Scratch-related threads begun by me (there are none) and all of the Peterson-related threads begun by Scratch. Count the individual posts from me that are primarily aimed at attacking Scratch. Now count the individual posts from Scratch that are primarily aimed at attacking me. See which number is larger. Then count the posts from me that are primarily aimed at defending myself, and count the Scratch posts that primarily represent his defense of himself against my aggressive attacks. Again, see which number is larger.

These measures, though crude, will clarify the truth of the situation. And I predict that the figures will be so eindeutig, as the Germans say, that there will be no reasonable room for doubt about the conclusion to be reached.

According to Scratch you admitred to being an "agent" of the SMC or whatever it is called.

Sigh. I once said that I once acted as "a kind of 'agent' of the Strengthening Church Members Committee."

Meaning, simply, that I was acting on the SCMC's behalf, at the request of one of its members. I went with a colleague to a stake center in the Salt Lake Valley, where, for about four hours, a disaffected member raised his various concerns about Church history and doctrine and the two of us tried to deal with them. He wasn't a prisoner. It wasn't an "interrogation." He was there of his own free will and choice. He was perfectly free to leave, get into his car, and drive home at any point. It was cordial. It wasn't sinister. The man's wife and parents had asked the secretary of the SCMC, who was a family friend, if he could suggest any help for their wavering husband/son. The secretary of the SCMC asked us if we would try to help. We said yes. We drove up. That's it. Period. We weren't paid for it. We weren't reimbursed for our gas. It was on our own time. We filed no report. We were never questioned about the conversation. I've never heard from the SCMC's secretary since.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Based on the evidence we have, it seems clear that the operations of FARMS have been financed with figures in the tens of millions.

They haven't.

The fact that you seem terrified of proffering even a ballpark figure is very telling.

I'm not terrified. I simply won't.

Like it or not, BYU has a general policy of not making its financial information available to the general public. The Maxwell Institute (of which FARMS is a part) complies with that policy.

And, although your winsome personality and notable charity toward me should certainly have earned you a special place in my heart, they just haven't. So I'm not going to go against University policy for you. Sorry.

Another question: how much of FARMS's budget comes from donations,

Most of it.

and how much comes from the Church?

None of it comes from the Church. Less than half of it comes from the University.

How many "Liahona"-level members exist,

I have no idea.

I nearly asked the question of our "clandestine fundraiser" Ed Snow during a meeting today. But I didn't.

and how much sway do they have in terms of the direction of Mopologetics [sic]?

None that I'm aware of.

When "Liahona"-class members contact Professional Fundraiser Snow, does he gently nudge them towards giving directly to FARMS Review, or other strictly apologetic ventures?

Sometimes he raises money to fund specific projects. Sometimes he raises money to fund general on-going operations. Sometimes he raises money for our endowment.

Here, by the way, is a photograph of our extremely secretive "clandestine fundraiser," with a brief biographical sketch of him:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/isparts ... n&whois=14