Swine in the Old Testament / tapir in the New World.

[_Hally McIlrath]

Not according to some apologists, who say that Nephi's detailed vision was sufficient for them to act as "Christians" from then on.

I'm not buying that. I think the Lemba are the defining example of what a Jewish-derivative people should look like. Is there evidence of Native American tribes practicing circumcision? Not mixing milk and meat? Avoiding pork? Ritualistically slaughtering animals in accordance with food laws? Where's the Star of David? It's been found in Lebanon in the 7th century BCE; well before the time frame of Lehi and his family.

And let us not forget that the Lemba tribes have Semitic DNA...

They really have no choice but to maintain this, because even aside from the tapir, the Book of Mormon does not describe a people concerned with keeping Jewish festivals and dietary regulations.

Yes, exactly. There should be, at the very least, mention made of Passover in the texts. Is it?

[_beastie]

Well, I didn't say it was a particularly good argument, just an argument I've seen some make.

One thing that they stress is that the Lehites became almost immediately subsumed within the larger culture, so it would be expected that, particularly with their new understanding of Christ, that some of these things be ignored over the years. For example, they would have to had ignore the Jewish ban against marrying someone outside the Jewish tribe, otherwise, their argument about the DNA disappearing because they physically intermarried right away would fall flat. The Book of Mormon describes people who were leaders of their people - if these leaders refused to intermarry, and, like all leaders, had higher than average offspring, this particular DNA would have remained intact and reproduced at a higher rate...so....you see where that leads.

[_beastie]

Kerry Shirts claims that, even though none of these Jewish festivals are mentioned, they are still described in the Book of Mormon. Here's his essay:

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/ancient.htm

[_Matt Amos]

beastie/Hally,

Did either of you notice the Book of Mormon scriptures I cited above? My post slipped in between two of yours, so I fear it was missed.


Nehor wrote:

Unless of course Christ were to visit them in which case they might pick up some Christian traits and (surprise surprise) this is just what happens as we find both Nephi and Jacob have interactions with him.

It is unclear to me what position you were advocating. Nonetheless, the true surprise is just how unequivocal the Book of Mormon text is on the issue of Nephite devotion to the Law of Moses.

[_beastie]

Yes, Matt, I did notice them, and that's why I provided kerry's link. You are right, the Book of Mormon presents a problem with this assertion and yet subsequent lack of attention to those details. I didn't want you to think I was saying that apologists feel free to completely disregard the fact that the Lehites were supposed to be following Judaic laws - I think they just kind of pick and choose which laws we can "expect" them to follow. Every apologist I know believes that the Lehites intermarried with the natives right away, for example. That was a HUGE "no-no" under Mosaic law.

As I said, I'm not saying this is a particularly good apologetic argument, just that it's an argument I've seen. I admit I have never been particularly interested in the Hebraic side of the equation, personally, so am not really qualified to do anything other than refer to other people's arguments.

Personally, I would not be surprised if the author of the Book of Mormon *did* attempt to insert some sort of references to Judaic law - the author was trying to make it sound "real", like the Bible, after all. That's why I think the Hebraic side is uninteresting. Hebraic connections could be expected even if the Book of Mormon were nineteenth century fiction.

To the original point, I have no doubt that when Joseph Smith dictated the word "horse", he actually meant "horse". The tapir argument is nonsense for many reasons we have discussed here before. In addition, other anachronistic animals were mentioned, and they all can't mean "tapir", can they? Book of Mormon apologists are really in a tough bind because there were no significant large land mammals in the area. It's not like they have a lot of choice on how to resolve this problem.

[_Hally McIlrath]

One thing that they stress is that the Lehites became almost immediately subsumed within the larger culture, so it would be expected that, particularly with their new understanding of Christ, that some of these things be ignored over the years.

The Lemba are now mostly Christian, and yet still retain many of their Jewish customs, without being subsumed by the larger culture of Sub-Saharan Africa.

For example, they would have to had ignore the Jewish ban against marrying someone outside the Jewish tribe, otherwise, their argument about the DNA disappearing because they physically intermarried right away would fall flat.

Jews intermarried with people not of their tribe, a fact which is quite readily apparent in the case of the Lemba:



and yet the DNA evidence that proved their claims of Jewish progeniture was quite easy to obtain.

And Matt, yes, I saw your excellent post. Thank you. :)

[_The Nehor]

beastie/Hally,

Did either of you notice the Book of Mormon scriptures I cited above? My post slipped in between two of yours, so I fear it was missed.


Nehor wrote:

Unless of course Christ were to visit them in which case they might pick up some Christian traits and (surprise surprise) this is just what happens as we find both Nephi and Jacob have interactions with him.

It is unclear to me what position you were advocating. Nonetheless, the true surprise is just how unequivocal the Book of Mormon text is on the issue of Nephite devotion to the Law of Moses.

There is a scripture in the Book of Mormon that does admit that the Law of Moses was adapted to their circumstances. I remember it jumping out at me last time I was reading it. Can't find it now. I'll look more tonight.