Church goes after signingforsomething.com owner ...

[_The Nehor]

Sounds like he has dedicated a significant part of his life to the Church. Why should he go. The Church is as much his as any other member or leader, including the Brethren.

He should go as he's repudiated key concepts needed to belong to the Church. He also threatened treason against the Church and purported to be working with a secret organization with such a goal. It is as much his as anyone else's. By that I mean he owns none of it just like every other mortal. It belongs to Christ.

They only need to scare the fringes, not the TBM's.

Not what he said.

He's right though -- raising a public stink is the only way to the get the Brethren to listen (if you do it through a private letter to Salt Lake, they just send it to your bishop and tell him to deal with it (of course, the offending member does not get a copy of that letter)).

They listened after his fraudulent letter writing campaign. Mission successful. They called him into a Church court for his actions as he expected. Congratulations man. Mission successful. Good job. That's right. Unchristian conduct and threats of treason do get attention that opposing Prop 8 on an obscure website DIDN'T get him.

The guy is an attention whore loon. He got his attention through means that would get someone kicked out of any organization. Is it any surprise he is then kicked out?

[_The Nehor]

You mean I trust that they had the revelation they said they had rather then follow a crazy string of evidences about BYU sports and somehow figure that the Apostles were so worried about it that they caved? Then I am delusional.

Too bad a monumental "revelation" like that hasn't been written down and published. According to accounts of apostles there, it sounds like the "revelation" was nothing more than the 'warm fuzzies.' Pretty anticlimactic.

Funny, they don't describe it the way you do. They describe it as amazing, intense, and wonderful. Having had the same kinds of revelation I agree with them. Also, this is getting off-topic.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

HAVE YOU READ WHAT HE SAID AND WATCHED THE VIDEOS?!?!?!?!

YES!!!!!

His goal is to alter the Church's stance, not speak out on an issue. He declares this OPENLY.

But he's right, and the Church is wrong, on this issue, so what's the big deal?

He openly admits that he lied to Church leaders to manipulate them to his own ends.

He had an ulterior motive -- that's not necessarily a lie. How did he lie in his letters?

He also states that he thinks his court is over his opposition to Prop 8.

It is. The Church has put all its credibility and fundraising abilities to support Prop 8 -- this is a VERY big deal to the Church.

I find it more likely that it is due to his insane attempt to pretend to be part of an organization seeking to overthrow the First Presidency which HE ADMITS DOING.

He is not trying to "overthrow" the FP. Just to right an obvious wrong. He's to be applauded, not persecuted.

The man is a loon. Stop trying to make this guy an innocent bleating sheep. HE IS A SELF-CONFESSED WOLF!!!!!!

Well maybe he should get a haircut, shave the beard, and put on a white shirt, because his "wolf in sheep's clothing" disguise ain't gonna fool anyone.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

He should go as he's repudiated key concepts needed to belong to the Church.

Separation of church/state, butting out of politics, etc. is a "key concept needed to belong to the Church"?!?!? You sure you didn't vote for Lucifer's plan?

He also threatened treason against the Church and purported to be working with a secret organization with such a goal.

Now you're just embellishing. It was clear that was not his goal.

It is as much his as anyone else's. By that I mean he owns none of it just like every other mortal. It belongs to Christ.

Then our very "mortal" leaders ought to take note.

The guy is an attention whore loon. He got his attention through means that would get someone kicked out of any organization. Is it any surprise he is then kicked out?

Perhaps, but he could also be a guy who truly believes in what he's doing and is fighting the good fight.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Funny, they don't describe it the way you do. They describe it as amazing, intense, and wonderful. Having had the same kinds of revelation I agree with them. Also, this is getting off-topic.

In other words, the 'warm fuzzies.' Ever wonder why the "revelation" wasn't written down and read? Other than the Manifesto (which originally was not in the form of a revelation, but WW's "suggestion"), all the other revelations we have are written and published.

[_The Nehor]

HAVE YOU READ WHAT HE SAID AND WATCHED THE VIDEOS?!?!?!?!

YES!!!!!

His goal is to alter the Church's stance, not speak out on an issue. He declares this OPENLY.

But he's right, and the Church is wrong, on this issue, so what's the big deal?

He openly admits that he lied to Church leaders to manipulate them to his own ends.

He had an ulterior motive -- that's not necessarily a lie. How did he lie in his letters?

He also states that he thinks his court is over his opposition to Prop 8.

It is. The Church has put all its credibility and fundraising abilities to support Prop 8 -- this is a VERY big deal to the Church.

I find it more likely that it is due to his insane attempt to pretend to be part of an organization seeking to overthrow the First Presidency which HE ADMITS DOING.

He is not trying to "overthrow" the FP. Just to right an obvious wrong. He's to be applauded, not persecuted.

The man is a loon. Stop trying to make this guy an innocent bleating sheep. HE IS A SELF-CONFESSED WOLF!!!!!!

Well maybe he should get a haircut, shave the beard, and put on a white shirt, because his "wolf in sheep's clothing" disguise ain't gonna fool anyone.

He had an ulterior motive for claiming to be trying to overthrow the First Presidency by throwing out a bunch of bogus codewords and the like? That's fine but don't expect there won't be consequences just because you think your motive is good.

No, he's not trying to overthrow the FP. He just claimed he was doing it to get attention. Congrats, he got it. Your attention whoring worked. He also gave them every reason to expel him without even mentioning Prop 8. If he wants to continue to seek to have the Church switch it's stance on Prop 8 I encourage him to do so WITHOUT his membership. Go nuts man. Have fun. Right those wrongs.

This is a stupid way to drum up support. Imagine writing Congressmen with threats to usurp control of the government through conspiracy. You'll get attention. You might even get a spotlight to share less extreme views publicly. In the end it won't be positive attention.

[_The Nehor]

Separation of church/state, butting out of politics, etc. is a "key concept needed to belong to the Church"?!?!? You sure you didn't vote for Lucifer's plan?

Attempting to influence revelation coming from those who hold the keys of that revelation is fighting against the Church. If you want to fight against the Church go ahead but don't expect to remain a part of it. He made his CHOICE. Lucifer's plan would have forced him to stay in the Church.

Now you're just embellishing. It was clear that was not his goal.

Then he shouldn't have said that is what it was. Made your bed. Lie in it. "I was just joking" doesn't cut it for a bomb threat. This is less serious but I wouldn't want anyone in an organization I belonged to that thought it was acceptable to threaten to usurp control of it.

Then our very "mortal" leaders ought to take note.

They do.

Perhaps, but he could also be a guy who truly believes in what he's doing and is fighting the good fight.

If the good fight involves crazy threats I think you should consider new tactics.

[_The Nehor]

Funny, they don't describe it the way you do. They describe it as amazing, intense, and wonderful. Having had the same kinds of revelation I agree with them. Also, this is getting off-topic.

In other words, the 'warm fuzzies.' Ever wonder why the "revelation" wasn't written down and read? Other than the Manifesto (which originally was not in the form of a revelation, but WW's "suggestion"), all the other revelations we have are written and published.

No, they're not. The Church has revelation all the time. Just a few that are considered scripture. I've had many revelations in my life. I have only two that I wrote as they were said to me.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Attempting to influence revelation coming from those who hold the keys of that revelation is fighting against the Church.

Here's the problem with this: Not event the Brethren have claimed "revelation" in this consitutional/political fight.

Then our very "mortal" leaders ought to take note.

They do.

No, they often do not. It's a power thing.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

No, they're not. The Church has revelation all the time. Just a few that are considered scripture. I've had many revelations in my life. I have only two that I wrote as they were said to me.

According to a GBH interview a few years ago, there is little need for more revelation because we already have a "great reservoir of revelation." In any event, the cessation of polygamy and priesthood ban were MONUMENTAL and certainly derserving of being written (especially when compared to BY's "revelation" about organizing wagon trains, which is still in the D&C).