How about an Alaskan Cruise with Dr. Peterson?

[_Mister Scratch]

I have the loathesome obligation to actually ask the same question.

A weekend in Vienna? Rubbing shoulders with the "rich and famous"? So to speak.

A full time, or part-time "job", in Apologetics? The "leisure" to spend almost 24/7 on an anti-Mormon board?

I dunno, I might be "speaking out of turn", but I'd like Dan to justify all this. Isn't it a sort of "paid ministry"?

Over to you, Dan.

What does lecturing on a Baltic cruise have to do with apologetics? How is taking my children to Paris at my own expense (and to my old mission areas in the Swiss Alps, and to the concentration camp in Austria that my father helped to liberate at the end of the Second World War) a venture in "paid ministry"? How is leading a tour of Israel and Jordan for a commercial travel company "apologetics"? How is directing an intensive Arabic language program in Jerusalem a "paid ministry"? How is it apologetics to participate in dialogues between western and Arab intellectuals in Spain and in Malta at the invitation and expense of a New York City foundation? How is lecturing at the Institut du Monde Arabe in Paris, on their dime, anything remotely approaching a "paid ministry"?

And why, Ray, do I have to justify my life to you or to Scartch?

Really. I think I've had it with this place.

This is simply ridiculous.

If you really want to see my tax returns and my personal financial documents for the past ten or twenty years, sue me.

I've had enough, and more than enough, of this endless, absurd, intrusive, invasive Scartchoscopy. Seeing you join in it, Ray, is the last straw.

Oh, well, in that case, I encourage you to file a lawsuit. Otherwise, you are just blowing hot air.

[_Calculus Crusader]

What does lecturing on a Baltic cruise have to do with apologetics? How is taking my children to Paris at my own expense (and to my old mission areas in the Swiss Alps, and to the concentration camp in Austria that my father helped to liberate at the end of the Second World War) a venture in "paid ministry"? How is leading a tour of Israel and Jordan for a commercial travel company "apologetics"? How is directing an intensive Arabic language program in Jerusalem a "paid ministry"? How is it apologetics to participate in dialogues between western and Arab intellectuals in Spain and in Malta at the invitation and expense of a New York City foundation? How is lecturing at the Institut du Monde Arabe in Paris, on their dime, anything remotely approaching a "paid ministry"?

And why, Ray, do I have to justify my life to you or to Scartch?

Really. I think I've had it with this place.

This is simply ridiculous.

If you really want to see my tax returns and my personal financial documents for the past ten or twenty years, sue me.

I've had enough, and more than enough, of this endless, absurd, intrusive, invasive Scartchoscopy. Seeing you join in it, Ray, is the last straw.

It would be a shame if you leave.

[_Ray A]

Dan, I'm going to be a little blunt here, in the name of political correctness, but I think you should stop referring to Mister Scratch as "Scartch". Polemics have a use-by date, and this sort of thing does nothing positive for you. In fact, it looks a bit ridiculous, and infantile.

I hope you don't mind my intrusions, but can you understand why a "normal person" who daily struggles with finances might want to question your "aplogetic activity"?

To your latest post:

Seeing you join in it, Ray, is the last straw.

And I, of course, have a vested interest in anti-Mormonism. I absoultely hate Dan Peterson!

I suppose I'm supposed to take sides, but you still don't see my questions as legitimate. I'm asking you questions that any person would ask! Would rather that I Bull*** you?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I took my kids to Paris while returning from six months teaching at the BYU Jerusalem Center. While our travel expenses to and from the Center were part of my compensation for teaching there, our travels within Europe were on my nickel. Would you like precise figures? Receipts? An itinerary?

I find this stunning.

You would, of course.

How many other universities are you aware of that would fly around some random professor's kids on the nickel and dime of the trustees / donors / tithe payers? I am truly blown away by this. Honestly, what should people think? If I were in your shoes, I would feel disgusted to know that I was leeching money away from honest people in order to give my children some extravagant vacation.

This is outrageous. Really outrageous.

How on earth do you think that the BYU Jerusalem Center would ever get faculty from BYU to go over there and serve on its faculty if it paid them only their normal salaries and made them either pick up the expenses for their spouses and children or, alternatively, leave spouses and children alone in the States for six months to a year? I'll clue you in on some more, too: BYU provides a living stipend for its faculty there, and for the lodging of their families.

This is no secret, and it's only fair.

I've never taken any of my kids to St. Petersburg.

But someone has apparently paid for you to go there and have a gay ol' time.

Can't you read?

I've been there twice: The first time was when the Soviet Union was still intact. Intourist offered a steeply discounted tour price for American educators in Egypt. (I assume that it was heavily subsidized and that it was part of a propaganda effort to affect American opinon about the Soviet Union.) My wife was teaching at the American school in Cairo at the time, while I was a graduate student, and we decided that it was simply too good an offer to pass up. So we went, at our own expense. The tour took us to Moscow and to what was then called Leningrad. What is there that's sinister or suspicious about that? The second time was when a commercial travel company hired me to lecture on a Baltic cruise that stopped, among other places, at St. Petersburg. As I've explained, for my services, my trip was paid for as was that of my wife. Again, this had nothing whatsoever to do with tithing funds.

How/why did this ever happen in the first place? It seems awfully opportunistic, if you don't mind my saying so.

Virtually everything I do strikes you as proceeding from base motives. Why should this be any surprise?

Did I think it was a great opportunity to see cities and places around the Baltic? Yes. Of course. Why in the world should I be ashamed of that?

Some of my trips have been on University errands. When my wife has accompanied me on such trips, she has generally paid her own way. (There have been a few exceptions, where she was participating with me in helping to host some international University-related event, or something of that sort.) I've spoken at academic conferences throughout North America, in Europe, in Asia, etc.

Yup. It seems clear that BYU has paid for your family to have a "gay ol' time" on the nickel and dime of LDS tithe payers.

That's flat out slanderously false.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Dan, I'm going to be a little blunt here, in the name of political correctness, but I think you should stop referring to Mister Scratch as "Scartch". Polemics have a use-by date, and this sort of thing does nothing positive for you. In fact, it looks a bit ridiculous, and infantile.

I don't really care, Ray.

What he's been doing to me for the past 2+ years is wholly unreasonable and unjust. Yet he continues to do it, and evidently with the approval, explicit or implicit, of many here.

I've been far more civil to him than he deserves, and have been far more forthcoming with information than he has had any right to expect. Yet the end result, completely predictable, is that I'm supposedly revealed every time as an unscrupulous profiteering mopologist hack, etc.

It's simply ridiculous. And anybody who doesn't see that it's ridiculous just isn't worth my attention any longer.

I hope you don't mind my intrusions, but can you understand why a "normal person" who daily struggles with finances might want to question your "aplogetic activity"?

Again, I ask what, exactly, is "apologetic" about engaging in dialogue with Arab intellectuals on Malta, or participating in a meeting in southern Spain to found a new journal of East/West exchanges, or lecturing about Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani's Kitab Rahat al-‘Aql in Paris, or leading a tour group to Petra, or participating in a symposium in Cairo, or speaking about my translation project in Damascus, or taking my family on my own expense to Scandinavia or Central Europe, or speaking to a meeting at the British Library in London about BYU's Islamic Translation Series, or going with my neighbors, at my own expense, to Italy?

I don't agree that my family's vacations or my personal finances are any of your business or this board's business.

[_Ray A]

Well, I'll end tonight's "debate" (from my POV) by saying, Dan, that my high opinion and respect for you has not diminished in the least. I don't agree with your advocacy of the Book of Mormon as "history", and I think it's rather ridiculous, if you ask me, but I understand that it's a case of horses for courses.

In my opinion, by advocating this, and encouraging others to believe this nonsense, is one reason you get so much opposition. Admit it, Dan, you've been a potential flame looking for a light in this regard, and I believe you're far enough intelligent to see otherwise, and that your belief is based more on emotional/spiritual conviction than historical reality.

Isn't it time for the Church to admit this, and allow people some leeway not to feel bound by obvious religious mythologies? Yet you are encouraging this nonsense, and adding to the emotional and spiritual conflicts that so many members feel.

Quit it, Dan.

And I bear you my testimony that the Book of Mormon is not historical.

[_Danna]

Crickey, are you guys serious!

For a start, family expenses were routinely covered for any 6mth+ posting in my previous life (made necessary by the ever-present Aussie threat, from the likes of Ray, jealous of our Marmite no doubt). And that an organisation renowned for being more tight-arse with allowances than Fiji. I have found the same in the 'real world'; any posting or position over 6 months in any decent organisation would involve family. Bar going on a mission of course, but that is another story. What is the problem?

Go check out the situation with 'celebrity' tour-guides. All expenses paid junkets are routine compensation for attracting and entertaining a decent number of punters. Other than having a chuckle at cruisers attracted to celebrity alaskan cruises, any attempt to imply underhand dealings is somewhere between paranoid and conspiracy theorist.

Besides which, give Daniel some room to consider my comments in the other thread without having spend all this time defending against crazy accusations.

[_Danna]

In my opinion, by advocating this, and encouraging others to believe this nonsense, is one reason you get so much opposition. Admit it, Dan, you've been a potential flame looking for a light in this regard, and I believe you're far enough intelligent to see otherwise, and that your belief is based more on emotional/spiritual conviction than historical reality.

Isn't it time for the Church to admit this, and allow people some leeway not to feel bound by obvious religious mythologies? Yet you are encouraging this nonsense, and adding to the emotional and spiritual conflicts that so many members feel.

I agree with you here. I don't understand it either.

[_harmony]

What he's been doing to me for the past 2+ years is wholly unreasonable and unjust. Yet he continues to do it, and evidently with the approval, explicit or implicit, of many here.

That's not fair. I've defended you. I've defended you on this thread.

Again, I ask what, exactly, is "apologetic" about engaging in dialogue with Arab intellectuals on Malta, or participating in a meeting in southern Spain to found a new journal of East/West exchanges, or lecturing about Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani's Kitab Rahat al-‘Aql in Paris, or leading a tour group to Petra, or participating in a symposium in Cairo, or speaking about my translation project in Damascus, or taking my family on my own expense to Scandinavia or Central Europe, or speaking to a meeting at the British Library in London about BYU's Islamic Translation Series, or going with my neighbors, at my own expense, to Italy?

I don't agree that my family's vacations or my personal finances are any of your business or this board's business.

Neither do I. Although it's obvious to me that there is a market for your expertise and you fully utilize that market, and give your wife and family some great experiences in the process. You've taken advantage of some career opportunities that aren't offered to just anyone, and maybe some of these comments are just the ol' green monster.

I am required to attend conferences and trainings all over the country. I fly sometimes 3-4 times a month to get to them. The people in my ward think I'm some sort of traveling guru, because they fly maybe once a year. I have a son who flies all over the world to consult about his job (something to do with computers). It's part of his life (he took his wife on a cruise using his frequent flyer miles last summer). To the members of my ward, he looks like a gallavanting world traveler. What they don't get is that he's working when he's playing golf with his clients in Scotland!

[_Ray A]

For a start, family expenses were routinely covered for any 6mth+ posting in my previous life (made necessary by the ever-present Aussie threat, from the likes of Ray, jealous of our Marmite no doubt). And that an organisation renowned for being more tight-arse with allowances than Fiji. I have found the same in the 'real world'; any posting or position over 6 months in any decent organisation would involve family. Bar going on a mission of course, but that is another story. What is the problem?

Typical Kiwi! But then, New Zealand is beautiful, and David Lange was not exactly a third grader with a low IQ. I'd migrate to NZ tomorrow, if it wasn't so damned COLD!