An Interesting Encounter With A Young Lady.

[_Angel1981]

I don't have a story about being in hell or being a terrible person to revert back to Christianity, however, I can relate. As I am a former Mormon I immediately went into atheism, until I started attending Catholic Mass. I really felt warm and accepted there. The culture was much easier to handle. I don't know what is true and what isn't, and I still question God's existence and his role in our lives, but I know where I feel good and where I don't, and its different for everyone. I'm glad this young lady has found a way to live happier. For me it's attending mass, for my family its Mormonism, and for a lot of friends of mine its Sunday football, the bar, the club, their car or their career. Some people have the same stories about their spouses, that they were lost until they met so-and-so, or they were a drunk or a loser until their spouse came into their lives.

[_antishock8]

I don't have a story about being in hell or being a terrible person to revert back to Christianity, however, I can relate. As I am a former Mormon I immediately went into atheism, until I started attending Catholic Mass. I really felt warm and accepted there. The culture was much easier to handle. I don't know what is true and what isn't, and I still question God's existence and his role in our lives, but I know where I feel good and where I don't, and its different for everyone. I'm glad this young lady has found a way to live happier. For me it's attending mass, for my family its Mormonism, and for a lot of friends of mine its Sunday football, the bar, the club, their car or their career. Some people have the same stories about their spouses, that they were lost until they met so-and-so, or they were a drunk or a loser until their spouse came into their lives.

See? Why can't people be like this? This was honest.

Me? I don't believe in any god, but I have a room full of ornate crosses. They're beautiful. They comfort me on some level. Some would say that's a god talking to me. I would say that it's my ethnic or cultural expression of who I am and it makes me happy.

We don't need lies in order to express ourselves. And we shouldn't lie in order to try to convince someone else that our way is what works for us. That's a bad thing.

[_Ray A]

See? Why can't people be like this? This was honest.

So that was honest, but the young lady I met wasn't honest. Only because no "miraculous" changes occurred in the above story.

Yeah, I got you well figured out, Antishock.

[_Ray A]

Ray automatically linked her "issues" with that of being an Atheist.

Incorrect. Did I write that anywhere in the account? Mind-reading?

Yes yes, because con men and women know that being insecure is the best way to propagate a deception. C'mon, now.

Sure, she had every reason to lie to a cab-driver in casual conversation. She must at heart really be a devil and a dishonest person.

And then, when wanting to lend credibility to one's self, the Religionist claims a desire for secular learning. Why is that? Why do Believers need the credibility of secular learning in order to bolster one's religiosity?

What is "secular learning"? Peruse any university course guide and let me know when you find the term "secular learning".

But notice the last little sentence:

Once again the insinuation that God or the metaphysical is yours if you just go for it.

So everyone must conform to your understanding of the universe. There is no God, and it's just not possible there's a God. And if anyone says they believe in God, they're obviously deluded. I presume you've been to the rim of the universe and decided there's no God.

Color me shocked. Ray was proselyted, and perhaps is doing a bit of his own with relating this "story", and claims he wasn't evangelized. C'mon, now.

Yes, come now, you know what happened better than I do.

She wraps up her story with a nice little testimonkey, and a solution for the target audience, who, it is assumed, will also draw their own parallels to the story and be moved to seek Jesus Christ and His Eternal Salvation.

Head in the hat, Ray. Head in the hat.

Your reading isn't up to scratch. I said she never mentioned Jesus Christ, and she never mentioned being anything about "eternal salvation". She merely wanted to avoid having the hellish experience again.

I don't know about a hat, but in a few hours my head will be in the fridge grabbing a beer.

Marg and AS8 have me all worked out. I need write nothing more, I'll just hand it over to them to explain what happened, since they obviously know better than I do. They're geniuses.

[_Ray A]

I don't know how much you buy into Storm's story. But for argument sake I'll assume that you do but let's say you don't think it really happened you think it only a dream or an hallucination, I wouldn't call you gullible on that.

You have no opinion on Storm's story? You think it might really have happened?

I didn't say I have no opinion on it, just no "final verdict". Now lessee, how long have I been studying NDEs? If you go back to the beginning, since around 1978, with Raymond Moody's books. I believe it's very possible they're real, just like Susan Blackmore does. She can't disprove them, yet you want to make this a litmus test to determine if I'm gullible, when even scientists are not offering a final verdict, only opinions. I don't call how you approach this scientific. In fact, it's contrary to the very nature of how science operates.

I'll leave you do some reading on what the real scientists have said, for example "Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands", in The Lancet. But I already know marg, you're not going to read it, because you already know the answer. Why these scientists waste so much time exploring it must be a real mystery to you.

"consternation" ? No Ray, you asked for an opinion? Both AS8 & I don't believe these people, whom you do.

You're welcome to believe or disbelieve whatever you please.

Look Ray, do you believe that sleeping with a Bible will get rid of horrendous, hellish nightmares? Do you believe that turning Christian and believing in the Christian God will get rid of those same nightmares.

Do you think those nightmares she claims to have had...would have disappeared because of the reasoning she gave?

It's quite possible, but there may be other explanations. For her that is what worked, not popping pills or visiting doctors. There's not much medicine can do about hellish nightmares either, as far as I'm aware.

You asked me a question which was "And do you accept that I accept they are not liars? Without referring to me as a "gullible believer"?" In order for me to answer that, I need to ask you further questions to determine if I think you are gullible or not. I need to see what you believe and your reasoning for that.

See above. I've explained where I stand.

It's quite possible she was Ray. I do agree with AS8, it sounds to me like she was. It sounds like a storyline she gives lots of people who will listen.

And I'm so much worse off for that, and even starting this thread as I thought many would be similarly interested, well, those with open minds anyway. There's also an important lesson in all this about religious dogma and its consequences, but that appears to have gone right over yours and AS8's head. Ironically, in trying to help people see that dogma isn't important in religious experience, I've encountered an even more stringent dogma from you and AS8.

You said her mom was Christian, it's very unlikely this churchy stuff is new to her.

I don't know when the mother became a Christian, but I'd say it's very likely her mother played a role in her visits to the Christian Lighthouse Centre. It's much better than doing what so many young women do these days, get drunk off their face and spew in taxis on the way home. So yes, God bless her. If only more young women were like her this world would be a much more tolerable place to live in.

WOW! Sorry I gave an opinion which differs to yours.

Apology accepted.

[_harmony]

Ironically, in trying to help people see that dogma isn't important in religious experience, I've encountered an even more stringent dogma from you and AS8.

The irony is dripping.

However, the thread has definitely reminded me of the NDE in my family, and how even though she was/is a strong lifelong BIC member of the church, that was not at all evident in her experience. Nor was that the message she brought back. How good of you to bring that to my attention, Ray.

[_marg]

I don't know how much you buy into Storm's story. But for argument sake I'll assume that you do but let's say you don't think it really happened you think it only a dream or an hallucination, I wouldn't call you gullible on that.

You have no opinion on Storm's story? You think it might really have happened?

I didn't say I have no opinion on it, just no "final verdict". Now lessee, how long have I been studying NDEs? If you go back to the beginning, since around 1978, with Raymond Moody's books. I believe it's very possible they're real, just like Susan Blackmore does. She can't disprove them, yet you want to make this a litmus test to determine if I'm gullible, when even scientists are not offering a final verdict, only opinions. I don't call how you approach this scientific. In fact, it's contrary to the very nature of how science operates.

I've asked you a question which you didn't answer, not only did you not answer but your response turned into an ad hom. Previously in this thread I've asked some questions which you also didn't answer.

I'll leave you do some reading on what the real scientists have said, for example "Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands", in The Lancet. But I already know marg, you're not going to read it, because you already know the answer. Why these scientists waste so much time exploring it must be a real mystery to you.

To begin with Ray just because some scientists do a paper does not mean there is consensus agreement within a scientific community of fellow peers on the subject. I skimmed the article Ray. Nothing particular stood out for me. Since you are the expert on the topic, give an executive summary of what you think is important in their findings. Upon skimming the papers what went through my mind is that their findings are based on very subjective results from individuals. I don't believe I read anywhere where they suggest that experiences were anything more than mechanisms occurring within the brain.

"consternation" ? No Ray, you asked for an opinion? Both AS8 & I don't believe these people, whom you do.

You're welcome to believe or disbelieve whatever you please.

I certainly haven't gotten that impression from you. If someone were to tell me a stranger I met may have lied, I doubt very much I'd go into an attack mode of the messenger...unless I had a vested interest in the story I was relating. So why are you so against anyone interpreting that both your storyteller's may have lied?

Look Ray, do you believe that sleeping with a Bible will get rid of horrendous, hellish nightmares? Do you believe that turning Christian and believing in the Christian God will get rid of those same nightmares.

Do you think those nightmares she claims to have had...would have disappeared because of the reasoning she gave?

It's quite possible, but there may be other explanations. For her that is what worked, not popping pills or visiting doctors. There's not much medicine can do about hellish nightmares either, as far as I'm aware.

Ok Ray, now that I have your answer, I think you are gullible.

You asked me a question which was "And do you accept that I accept they are not liars? Without referring to me as a "gullible believer"?" In order for me to answer that, I need to ask you further questions to determine if I think you are gullible or not. I need to see what you believe and your reasoning for that.

See above. I've explained where I stand.

It's quite possible she was Ray. I do agree with AS8, it sounds to me like she was. It sounds like a storyline she gives lots of people who will listen.

And I'm so much worse off for that, and even starting this thread as I thought many would be similarly interested, well, those with open minds anyway. There's also an important lesson in all this about religious dogma and its consequences, but that appears to have gone right over yours and AS8's head. Ironically, in trying to help people see that dogma isn't important in religious experience, I've encountered an even more stringent dogma from you and AS8.

- worse off? No one suggested you are worse of.
- you think because you believe their experiences may have truly happened you have an open mind, but that others who don't accept their stories don't? How open minded are you Ray? You think because they relate their experiences, that in your passenger's case God intervened, and in Storm's case he truly experienced a real afterlife? As I said to you Ray, the evidence for me to accept a claim must commensurate with the claim. The more extraordinary the claim, the greater the evidence I expect.

You said her mom was Christian, it's very unlikely this churchy stuff is new to her.

I don't know when the mother became a Christian, but I'd say it's very likely her mother played a role in her visits to the Christian Lighthouse Centre. It's much better than doing what so many young women do these days, get drunk off their face and spew in taxis on the way home. So yes, God bless her. If only more young women were like her this world would be a much more tolerable place to live in.

You know very little about this woman, yet you're using her story to spread your beliefs about God belief. So what's the moral you want to convey? God belief helps people make better life decisions? Is that what this was all about? You are proselytizing to atheists on here and that's why you can not accept that any atheist might think the anecdotes were fabricated to push an agenda?

[_Ray A]

I've asked you a question which you didn't answer, not only did you not answer but your response turned into an ad hom. Previously in this thread I've asked some questions which you also didn't answer.

Probably because I thought they weren't worth a reply, or they were already answered and you missed it.

I certainly haven't gotten that impression from you. If someone were to tell me a stranger I met may have lied, I doubt very much I'd go into an attack mode of the messenger...unless I had a vested interest in the story I was relating. So why are you so against anyone interpreting that both your storyteller's may have lied?

Have I altered your belief/non-belief? Have I stopped you expressing your opinion here? "Attack mode". Not really, just amazed mode. I'm still amazed that the young lady is being portrayed as a liar and an "evangelist", when she was neither, in my opinion. What is clear to me is that you and AS8 don't really object to her, but her "supernatural claims", or "miracle claim". For some reason it appears to gall you. I can't think of any other reason you'd want to throw her under the bus.

Ok Ray, now that I have your answer, I think you are gullible.

I won't lose any sleep over that. Promise.

- worse off? No one suggested you are worse of.
- you think because you believe their experiences may have truly happened you have an open mind, but that others who don't accept their stories don't? How open minded are you Ray? You think because they relate their experiences, that in your passenger's case God intervened, and in Storm's case he truly experienced a real afterlife? As I said to you Ray, the evidence for me to accept a claim must commensurate with the claim. The more extraordinary the claim, the greater the evidence I expect.

But you don't properly read most of the claims. Tell me, marg, how many books on near death experiences have you read? One? Ten? Twenty? None? How many scientific articles on NDEs have you read? One? Ten? Twenty? None?

You know very little about this woman, yet you're using her story to spread your beliefs about God belief.

I don't even know her name! But she impressed me much. So, even if I was, according to you, trying to "spread [my] beliefs about God belief", does that offend you? You're trying to keep this in check? You hate it? You think it's wrong? Is there something wrong about "God belief", that you so strenuously object? I already know you think I'm a poor, gullible God-believer, a very rare phenomenon which only "nuts" have entertained throughout history.

So what's the moral you want to convey? God belief helps people make better life decisions? Is that what this was all about?

There was no "moral". I liked the young lady, I thought her story was interesting. I apologise for the crime of starting this thread, since it appears so offensive to some atheists.

You are proselytizing to atheists on here and that's why you can not accept that any atheist might think the anecdotes were fabricated to push an agenda?

The "atheists on here" didn't have to reply. They could have ignored it, and in fact many of them have ignored it. I guess you must be the spokesperson for all atheists on the board?

To begin with Ray just because some scientists do a paper does not mean there is consensus agreement within a scientific community of fellow peers on the subject. I skimmed the article Ray. Nothing particular stood out for me. Since you are the expert on the topic, give an executive summary of what you think is important in their findings. Upon skimming the papers what went through my mind is that their findings are based on very subjective results from individuals. I don't believe I read anywhere where they suggest that experiences were anything more than mechanisms occurring within the brain.

There is no "consensus of agreement" in near death studies, even though you'd very much like to think that.

Just as I thought, you only skimmed it. Well, I'm not going to offer a reply if you're too lazy or uninterested to do your own reading, form your own opinions from that reading, and then offer some intelligent rebuttals. Sorry, but that's not on, asking me to write out what you can read for yourself. And your last sentence is incorrect. They do not suggest that mechanisms occurring within the brain can account for NDE.

Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients' medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE. Psychological factors are unlikely to be important as fear was not associated with NDE.

Skimming won't do, because skimming means you've already made up your mind and you're looking to reinforce conclusions you've already reached.

Why does that not surprise me?

[_marg]

I certainly haven't gotten that impression from you. If someone were to tell me a stranger I met may have lied, I doubt very much I'd go into an attack mode of the messenger...unless I had a vested interest in the story I was relating. So why are you so against anyone interpreting that both your storyteller's may have lied?

Have I altered your belief/non-belief? Have I stopped you expressing your opinion here? "Attack mode". Not really, just amazed mode. I'm still amazed that the young lady is being portrayed as a liar and an "evangelist", when she was neither, in my opinion. What is clear to me is that you and AS8 don't really object to her, but her "supernatural claims", or "miracle claim". For some reason it appears to gall you. I can't think of any other reason you'd want to throw her under the bus.

Your passenger's and Storm's ancecdotal stories don't gall me in the least. They aren't believable, no big deal about that.

- worse off? No one suggested you are worse of.
- you think because you believe their experiences may have truly happened you have an open mind, but that others who don't accept their stories don't? How open minded are you Ray? You think because they relate their experiences, that in your passenger's case God intervened, and in Storm's case he truly experienced a real afterlife? As I said to you Ray, the evidence for me to accept a claim must commensurate with the claim. The more extraordinary the claim, the greater the evidence I expect.

But you don't properly read most of the claims. Tell me, marg, how many books on near death experiences have you read? One? Ten? Twenty? None? How many scientific articles on NDEs have you read? One? Ten? Twenty? None?

Ray you've added virtually nothing of substance in this thread to the issue of NDE's. A couple of anecdotal stories, some journal article which when I asked you to give me an executive summary or the most important point to take away from it, you refused. You haven't presented any argument and basically all you've done is attack those who are critical of the truth claims of Storm and the passenger you picked up.

You know very little about this woman, yet you're using her story to spread your beliefs about God belief.

I don't even know her name! But she impressed me much. So, even if I was, according to you, trying to "spread [my] beliefs about God belief", does that offend you? You're trying to keep this in check? You hate it? You think it's wrong? Is there something wrong about "God belief", that you so strenuously object? I already know you think I'm a poor, gullible God-believer, a very rare phenomenon which only "nuts" have entertained throughout history.

Quite simply you are using this woman's short apparently proselytizing story, to spread your beliefs. Using her as if she is representative of someone with good moral values because she was sober when you picked her up. You have no idea what her moral values are just because she happened to be sober when you picked her up. You've presented the story as a cause and effect. This woman turned to God and church and now is a sober, drugless, morally ideal individual. Sheesh.

So what's the moral you want to convey? God belief helps people make better life decisions? Is that what this was all about?

There was no "moral". I liked the young lady, I thought her story was interesting. I apologise for the crime of starting this thread, since it appears so offensive to some atheists.

Her story isn't offensive, nor Storm's. However you appear to be unable to accept particular criticisms of them without resorting to personal attacks.

There is no "consensus of agreement" in near death studies, even though you'd very much like to think that.

What the hell is there then? Has anything meaningful, of scientific substance come out of any studies?

Just as I thought, you only skimmed it. Well, I'm not going to offer a reply if you're too lazy or uninterested to do your own reading, form your own opinions from that reading, and then offer some intelligent rebuttals. Sorry, but that's not on, asking me to write out what you can read for yourself. And your last sentence is incorrect. They do not suggest that mechanisms occurring within the brain can account for NDE.

As I said previously you've offered no substance in this thread on an issue you take an interest in and wish to promote. Don't pass the buck onto me.

Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients' medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE. Psychological factors are unlikely to be important as fear was not associated with NDE.

I don't see anything of substance in the above.

Skimming won't do, because skimming means you've already made up your mind and you're looking to reinforce conclusions you've already reached.

Why does that not surprise me?

Skimming does not mean one has made up their mind.

[_Ray A]

Your passenger's and Storm's ancecdotal stories don't gall me in the least. They aren't believable, no big deal about that.

I understand. Calling someone a "liar" is "no big deal". That's also indirectly aimed at me, your "gullible one". You have made a "big deal" about it. And you still have no idea how you're insulting my intelligence.

Ray you've added virtually nothing of substance in this thread to the issue of NDE's.

Put more accurately, you've read nothing substantial, because you hardly ever read anything at length. You are the expert on everything who's read nothing.

A couple of anecdotal stories, some journal article which when I asked you to give me an executive summary or the most important point to take away from it, you refused. You haven't presented any argument and basically all you've done is attack those who are critical of the truth claims of Storm and the passenger you picked up.

A "couple of anecdotal stories", among the thousands I've gathered in the last 30 years. But since they can't be laboratory tested, they're useless to you, marg. Or should that be "lavatory tested"? When your husband proposed to you, did you ask for a scientific analysis? I know that sounds cheap, but this is, in reality, how you approach these things, marg.

Quite simply you are using this woman's short apparently proselytizing story, to spread your beliefs.

When do I report to the Gestapo? Will I be executed? Or can I make a plea of "gullible insanity"?

Using her as if she is representative of someone with good moral values because she was sober when you picked her up. You have no idea what her moral values are just because she happened to be sober when you picked her up. You've presented the story as a cause and effect. This woman turned to God and church and now is a sober, drugless, morally ideal individual. Sheesh.

So if I picked up a woman with profanity pouring out of her mouth, spewing all inside the cab, not paying the fare, I'm unjustified in making any comparison with a decent young woman who tells me about her spiritual experiences, pays the fare, and mentions the word "God" during the conversation? You have some "interesting" priorities, marg. And the term "by their fruits" means nothing to you. Oh hell, I just used a Bible quote. My apology.

Her story isn't offensive, nor Storm's. However you appear to be unable to accept particular criticisms of them without resorting to personal attacks.

And calling the young lady a "liar", "dishonest", "juvenile", and an Evangelistic purveyor of, ugggh, Christianity, isn't an attack? I presented an honest picture of the woman, as I saw it, but I'm amazed to learn that I'm the victim of a "con". No need to think for myself, marg and AS8 can do that well enough for me. My brain is obviously "on leave". Marg and AS8 will think for me.

What the hell is there then? Has anything meaningful, of scientific substance come out of any studies?

Well, marg, if you took the time to read them, you'll actually see. But I'll give you a lead. Nothing concrete, and no "consensus of agreement" has emerged because of the complex nature of near death studies. I think that in 20 years we will have something approaching "final". Technology is being developed to determine this, and practical approaches will eventually supersede more theoretical ones. But that doesn't mean that current theoretical approaches have no value. They are based on numerous analyses of anecdotal accounts, and collating data from other related studies.

As I said previously you've offered no substance in this thread on an issue you take an interest in and wish to promote. Don't pass the buck onto me.

And as I said previously, your reading isn't of much substance.

I don't see anything of substance in the above.

After skimming an article, what do you expect to see? The stars?

Skimming does not mean one has made up their mind.

So you're trying to tell me you haven't made up your mind about any of this? It's all in your "examine more" basket?

You still haven't listed how many books and scientific articles you've read on NDEs.

Here's my educated guess: None.