Peterson Pace - "Those who can, do ....."

[_solomarineris]

Obviously these people think differently than you do, Daniel. And somehow I think they may actually know.

You aren't going to go anywhere with your claims, when discussing these touching subjects with DCP.
He simply cannot contradict fallacious path he's chosen to follow. His livelihood, family, creed is based on this
utopia. Does he suffer the symptoms of Effective Blindness, Cognitive Dissonance?. I think so.
When he says No to women's plight in Islam, he's smart enough to stop with no, without elaborating.
Having spent 1/3 of my life in Middle East, growing up on the streets of Istanbul, of course I know otherwise, but an American or European were to look Istanbul or any modern Islamic city would perhaps fail to see the oppression of women
in every levels of society. The fact is alot worse than what you read.
What recourse that leaves DCP, other than saying no?
He surely knows how farcical, pseud path he's undertaking.
And this is IMHO is hell.

[_Daniel Peterson]

His livelihood, family, creed is based on this utopia.

Your "utopia" claim caught solomarinated, Harmony. Congratulations. He's a very discriminating reader. A noteworthy catch.

[Guest]

Google-god answered my prayers!

http://stats.uis.unesco.org/unesco/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=210



You can see adult female literacy rates in the Arab world are mostly woeful at best. I'm sure this is a combination-result of a repressive male culture and a virulently anti-woman religion a la Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... eracy_rate

[_Daniel Peterson]

A quick glance suggests that, if antishock8's statistics are to be believed, Muslim Tajikistan and Kazakhstan have higher literacy rates than does the United States; Muslim Turkmenistan has a higher literacy rate than does Italy; Muslim Turkey has a higher literacy rate than do the Dominican Republic and Bolivia; Muslim Saudi Arabia and Iran and Oman have higher literacy rates than do El Salvador, Honduras, Jamaica, and Nicaragua; Muslim Egypt has a higher literacy rate than does Guatemala; and etc. (Which -- don't watch the magician's hands! -- demonstrates [abracadabra presto change-o and shazaam!] that Islam penalizes the education of women.) And the very highest literacy rate is reported by Cuba, which, let us suppose, Harmony regards as a utopian model of human rights and personal development for all.

Yesterday, by the way, I met with two Arab women Ph.D.s -- one from Tunisia and the other from Egypt -- in order to further plan a major future event to be held at BYU. Just for the record. Of course, I'm making it all up, because my "livelihood, family, creed is based on this utopia."

[_antishock8]

As far as "Islamic" states go the literacy rates vary widely, but Pakistan is a good indicator of Islamic female literacy rates in Central Asia:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 009_pg7_16

http://www.jansamachar.net/display.php3 ... ng=English

42% of Pakistani women are literate.

I think we can safely assume there is an underlying impetus within Islamic and Arab states that compel men to oppress their women that falls outside simple patriarchal anti-woman attitudes.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I think we can safely assume there is an underlying impetus within Islamic and Arab states that compel men to oppress their women that falls outside simple patriarchal anti-woman attitudes.

Islamist utopian though I'm supposed to be, I freely acknowledge that Islam is, to put it mildly, not a feminist ideology. But does it, as such, oppose the education of women, as claimed by Harmony? No. Does it, as insinuated by Shades, punish the education of women? Overwhelmingly, no. And those were the questions.

Incidentally, the overall literacy rate for women on the Indian subcontinent is below 50%, in Hindu India as well as in Muslim Pakistan, and there are non-Muslim nations as well as Muslim nations where male literacy is fifteen percent or more higher than female literacy:

http://books.google.com/books?id=G8OCo1 ... t&resnum=6

[_antishock8]

I think we can safely assume there is an underlying impetus within Islamic and Arab states that compel men to oppress their women that falls outside simple patriarchal anti-woman attitudes.

Islamist utopian though I'm supposed to be, I freely acknowledge that Islam is, on the whole, not a feminist ideology. But does it, as such, oppose the education of women, as claimed by Harmony? No. Does it, as insinuated by Shades, punish the education of women? Overwhelmingly, no. And those were the questions.

Incidentally, the overall literacy rate for women on the Indian subcontinent is below 50%, in Hindu India as well as in Muslim Pakistan, and there are non-Muslim nations as well as Muslim nations where male literacy is fifteen percent or more higher than female literacy:

http://books.google.com/books?id=G8OCo1 ... t&resnum=6

What would be the impetus behind the abysmal female literacy rates in the Arab world, in your opinion?

[_Daniel Peterson]

What would be the impetus behind the abysmal female literacy rates in the Arab world, in your opinion?

It's clear that the intensely male-focused character of Islam and Islam-based societies contributes to the low rates of female literacy in the Arab world. No question. But other factors, including poverty and, in many cases, the perceived lack of utility of general and particularly female literacy, also contribute.

As noted, rates of female literacy are abysmally low in many non-Muslim countries as well as in Muslim ones.

But none of this demonstrates that Islam, as such, opposes the education of women, let alone that it penalizes such education. And those, it must be remembered, were the suggestions, respectively, of Harmony and Scratch to which I've responded.

[_solomarineris]

What would be the impetus behind the abysmal female literacy rates in the Arab world, in your opinion?

I don't think it is fair to ask this Q. to DCP.
He knows very well that degradation, subjugation of women has deep roots in Islam. Even before Mohammed
women had pitiful existence but Islam basically eliminated all hopes for gender equity.

[_antishock8]

What would be the impetus behind the abysmal female literacy rates in the Arab world, in your opinion?

It's clear that the intensely male-focused character of Islam and Islam-based societies contributes to the low rates of female literacy in the Arab world. No question. But other factors, including poverty and, in many cases, the perceived lack of utility of general and particularly female literacy, also contribute.

As noted, rates of female literacy are abysmally low in many non-Muslim countries as well as in Muslim ones.

But none of this demonstrates that Islam, as such, opposes the education of women, let alone that it penalizes such education. And those, it must be remembered, were the suggestions, respectively, of Harmony and Scratch to which I've responded.

True enough, but the strict imposition Islam, as interpreted by major Sunni ulemahs, places on female dress, travel, company, social contracts, and domestic responsibilities effectively hands their lives over to their male handlers. While education isn't technically discourage in most instances, higher priorities are placed on controlling their women... And allowing them to go to school, become educated beyond elementary and high school just isn't high on Muslim males' priority lists it would seem.

I would liken this to Mormon women, in a manner, in that they're encouraged to pursue an education, but discouraged from straying from their traditional roles. In Islam this is exagerrated to tragic, and in many cases, horrific extremes.