MAD insults - for DCP's enlightenment

[_JohnStuartMill]

I'm neither surprised or shocked at MAD's double-standard.

I'll tell you what. Every time I see something at MAD that I think is over the line fro man LDS person I'll let them know I think we should raise the level of our discourse and I don't think the behavior is appropriate. I can't talk you out of thinking MADB is doing something wrong, but I can try to ameliorate the situation.

Well, that'll help, and I appreciate that (even though I don't post there anymore, because I invited a ban on myself because I was sick of the double-standard), but you'll just be one person patching up a structural deficiency in MAD's setup. I hope you'll make much of a difference, but I doubt you will.

The MAD rules don't preclude solid criticism per se, true, but they do make it much more difficult to give it. The allowance of Pahoran to continually bait critics into stooping to his level, at which point they are banned, is an unnecessary hazard for people who want to make substantive criticisms. How many "sincere and intelligent posters" have been driven from MAD because of Pahoran and selek, I wonder? You act as if that number is not higher than zero.

I'm aware it's not zero, but I think it's lower than the number driven away from here. Mercury's behavior alone probably accounts for as many people as have ever been driven away from MADB.

I don't remember seeing Mercury do anything as bad as Pahoran, but then again, I don't read his (her?) posts much, and have only been on this board since December. But I still think you're not getting the full picture here: if there are believers here who have been driven away by Mercury, why can't there by critics here who have been driven away by bcspace or The Nehor? You're trying to draw a false equivalence by saying that MADB drives away critics and this place drives away believers, but there's no reason that this place wouldn't drive away critics in equal numbers, because the believers here are just as intemperate as the critics.

The double-standard also makes it very easy for mods to shut down topics that are damaging to the apologists' side. I remember making a pretty calm thread (just because I'm as pugilistic on this board as the Mormons here doesn't mean I don't know civility when I see it) about the problems Brigham Young's racist comments pose to people who believe that prophets shouldn't be questioned on doctrinal matters, and being shut down for "intemperate rhetoric" or something.

I've seen that once or twice, too. To be fair, I think the potential for escalation to real trouble has been a contributing factor in at least one instance I can think of.

"For your information, THE SUPREME COURT HAS ROUNDLY REJECTED PRIOR RESTRAINT!"

Movie quotes aside, I hope you realize that MADB's practice there is positively Orwellian. You would recognize this immediately if the tables were turned: if a thread containing strong linguistic evidences for the Book of Mormon were shut down here because of the mere possibility of things getting out of hand.

Okay, whatever. The point is that MAD is not some troll-free paradise, and that the critics just can't hack it there. MAD still has trolls; the only difference between here and there is that MAD's trolls all slant one way.

Granted, but trolls don't bother me as much as the bating and the abuse.

I think of those as simply what trolls do. Or did it not bother you when Pahoran called me a child molester, or when atheists are regularly referred to over there as nihilists and selfish hedonists?

Again, the fact that other boards favor their constituencies doesn't absolve MAD of its own double standard. The fact remains that MAD is precisely analogous to CARM, with Mormons playing the role of Evangelicals, and critics playing the role of CARMS's Mormons. This is why MADite criticism of CARM is so awkward.

I don't agree that the double standards are analogous. At CARM no one is allowed to interfere with "witnessing" from Evangelicals in any way. No one is allowed to link to any LDS-affiliated website at all. No one is allowed to promote "non-Christian" doctrine. No one is allowed to accuse an Evangelical of being dishonest, whether tacitly or openly. MADB has its issues, but it's far from CARM.

I've never been to CARM, so you're probably right that it's worse than MAD. But they do share at least one thing in common: a blatant double-standard for their favored participants. That's still food for thought.

[_maklelan]

Well, that'll help, and I appreciate that (even though I don't post there anymore, because I invited a ban on myself because I was sick of the double-standard), but you'll just be one person patching up a structural deficiency in MAD's setup. I hope you'll make much of a difference, but I doubt you will.

We'll see.

I don't remember seeing Mercury do anything as bad as Pahoran, but then again, I don't read his (her?) posts much, and have only been on this board since December. But I still think you're not getting the full picture here: if there are believers here who have been driven away by Mercury, why can't there by critics here who have been driven away by bcspace or The Nehor? You're trying to draw a false equivalence by saying that MADB drives away critics and this place drives away believers, but there's no reason that this place wouldn't drive away critics in equal numbers, because the believers here are just as intemperate as the critics.

And I've seen LDS people driven away from MADB as well. What I'm trying to point out is that there is less that offends on MADB, even if what does offend is disproportionately aimed at critics.

"For your information, THE SUPREME COURT HAS ROUNDLY REJECTED PRIOR RESTRAINT!"

"I'll get you a toe by 3 O'clock."

Movie quotes aside, I hope you realize that MADB's practice there is positively Orwellian. You would recognize this immediately if the tables were turned: if a thread containing strong linguistic evidences for the Book of Mormon were shut down here because of the mere possibility of things getting out of hand.

But do you think a thread can ever be appropriately shut down? It happens over there with certain topics, and it happens even more on non-LDS message boards. I get the impression that the powers that be here think there the answer is no. I am guessing you agree with that.

I think of those as simply what trolls do. Or did it not bother you when Pahoran called me a child molester, or when atheists are regularly referred to over there as nihilists and selfish hedonists?

I've not seen that behavior, but I also don't read the vast majority of the comments over there, but I know I've seen questionable behavior. I'll be honest, I don't know a whole lot about all the message board vernacular (I don't know what ROTFLMAO means, for instance), but I've always thought a troll was someone who just hung around waiting for someone to bark at only to retreat again into the darkness. I don't think Pahoran totally fits that bill.

I've never been to CARM, so you're probably right that it's worse than MAD. But they do share at least one thing in common: a blatant double-standard for their favored participants. That's still food for thought.

And I don't disagree that that's the case, but it's common everywhere, and I'm not so sure the total lack of regulation here is that much better.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Movie quotes aside, I hope you realize that MADB's practice there is positively Orwellian. You would recognize this immediately if the tables were turned: if a thread containing strong linguistic evidences for the Book of Mormon were shut down here because of the mere possibility of things getting out of hand.

But do you think a thread can ever be appropriately shut down? It happens over there with certain topics, and it happens even more on non-LDS message boards. I get the impression that the powers that be here think there the answer is no. I am guessing you agree with that.

Well, no. We've gone from talking about shutting down topics before they get out of hand (which I don't agree with), to talking about shutting down topics, period (which I agree is sometimes warranted). See the elision there?

[_maklelan]

Well, no. We've gone from talking about shutting down topics before they get out of hand (which I don't agree with), to talking about shutting down topics, period (which I agree is sometimes warranted). See the elision there?

But you haven't been talking exclusively about threads shut down because trouble was anticipated. I think it's pretty rare over there, but I agree that sometimes it's a little suspicious.

[_Droopy]

I really don’t think that I behaved in a fashion to justify these remarks. I did accuse Pahoran of being a hypocrite and rewriting history, within the context of Pahoran accusing Dr. W of being dishonest for “exploiting a tragedy caused by mental illness to sore a polemic point”. I presented information that I think showed Pahoran did the exact same thing. I’m pretty sure those comments were the only ones I made that could be construed to be similar, at all, to these comments made to me. And I made those comments within a specific context. Often these insults were launched at me without any connection to the context at all.

Keep in mind – this long list of personal insults that I’ve endured on MAD were all made in the course of one week.

None of this, indeed, no combination of it even approximates what an LDS apologist must endure in this forum. There is not the slightest resemblance to the vulgarity, profane flaming, character assassination, mocking and spitting upon the sacred things of others, and scattalogical attacks on LDS defenders that are common, everyday occurrences in the Terrestrial room. Never mind the Telestial.

Yes Beastie, your overall tendentiousness when dealing with historical and archaeological subjects, and your inability to follow nuanced, logical argument can be quite annoying.

[_Droopy]

Where did I ever say that I wasn't a Mormon? Further, you're saying, in effect, that I hate people who are very close to me, Dan. I really don't appreciate this remark at all. It's over the line, even for you.

Perhaps you haven't, but no matter, the fact of the matter is that you are not LDS. Your substantial lack of doctrinal knowledge and knowledge of LDS culture demonstrated that to my satisfaction years ago.

[_JohnStuartMill]

maklelan: I think I adequately qualified the post to which you responded. I nowhere said that I opposed all thread closings. You drew an illegitimate inference from my post, but I don't think it was done in bad faith, so it's not a big deal.

[_beastie]

So, according to droopy, none of these pejoratives constitute character assassination or mocking.

Sheer and shameless dishonesty, hypocrisy, pure fabrication, intellectually dishonest, whiney passive aggressiveness, need to “dissimulate”, dishonesty, too dumb, intellectually deficient, lack of cognitive ability, childish, immature, whining self-absorbed, sophistries, yapping cur, “slinks in to soil rug”, uncouth, deceitful, rapacious, dishonest, schemer, liar, jackal, fraud, fool, stain, blight, crafty, cunning, “gifted with the serpent’s tongue”, treachery, harping, nagging, cannot plausibly have good faith belief in, “as truthful as any assertion you’ve made; that is, false”, whining, sad pathos, spoilt child, “parody of intellectual discourse”.

Now, of course, there are some "bad words" that this board might allow that MAD won't, but to act as if these particular words alone create categorically worse character assassination is nonsense.

in my opinion, this is what it all boils down to:

mocking and spitting upon the sacred things of others

LDS tend to be so sensitive about their faith's truth claims that they often perceive pointed and persistent criticism of those same claims as "mocking and spitting". The mere fact that critics are criticizing the "Lord's One True Church" automatically justifies categorizing their behavior as practically demonic, and any bad behavior that defenders of the faith may engage in during the battle is completely justified.

I think the dismissive reactions of both DCP and droopy to the insults I endured on MAD in the course of one week tells us all we need to know about why the MAD moderating policy exists, and is generally approved of by believers.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I really don’t think that I behaved in a fashion to justify these remarks. I did accuse Pahoran of being a hypocrite and rewriting history, within the context of Pahoran accusing Dr. W of being dishonest for “exploiting a tragedy caused by mental illness to sore a polemic point”. I presented information that I think showed Pahoran did the exact same thing. I’m pretty sure those comments were the only ones I made that could be construed to be similar, at all, to these comments made to me. And I made those comments within a specific context. Often these insults were launched at me without any connection to the context at all.

Keep in mind – this long list of personal insults that I’ve endured on MAD were all made in the course of one week.

None of this, indeed, no combination of it even approximates what an LDS apologist must endure in this forum. There is not the slightest resemblance to the vulgarity, profane flaming, character assassination, mocking and spitting upon the sacred things of others, and scattalogical attacks on LDS defenders that are common, everyday occurrences in the Terrestrial room. Never mind the Telestial.

Yes Beastie, your overall tendentiousness when dealing with historical and archaeological subjects, and your inability to follow nuanced, logical argument can be quite annoying.

Hello,

I think this post illustrates perfectly the critic's double-bind when engaging many-a-Mormon on a forum such as this.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me