Rich's Website

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_Simon Belmont

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Simon Belmont »

mikwut wrote:If Rich's religion has "problems?",


Yes. I cannot think of a religion that has not suffered its fair share of problems over the years/decades/centuries.

I can only assume you mean is has been shown false, or it has been discredited to such a level as to not warrant reliable belief, or something along those lines.


That isn't what I mean at all.

But you than have destroyed the Mormon faith at the same time. That could be considered an attack on Mormonism by you. As a Christian the atonement, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the core beliefs. Do you think these have "problems"?


You've built this argument on a strawman. That isn't my position. I believe in the mission and atonement of Jesus Christ as well.

Start defining your terms Simon, this is the third time I am asking. What does hate mean to you in this context, what is the definition of "attack", how does one go about promoting a religion they believe is true without in some way at least implying that others are not?


I have. When Rich equates my faith "false hopes, shattered dreams, and wasted lives" that is an attack!
When Rich tells me "If it were not for the man who refuted Jehovah’s Witness doctrine I may have never realized the truth about how wrong the Jehovah’s Witnesses are!" that is an attack!
When Rich says "My ministry is to paint an honest picture of these three branches of religion. Which if they had done so, there would be no need for my articles" that is an attack!

Why should I care that Richard Dawkins "attacks" my belief in God and Christianity if I think he is wrong? Why should you?

mikwut


I don't know why Dawkins chooses to attack religion. I don't much care. This is about Rich. Will Rich man up and address my concerns?
_mikwut
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Simon,

Yes. I cannot think of a religion that has not suffered its fair share of problems over the years/decades/centuries.


You certainly love to make your positions vague don't you. You don't make clear what your referring to as "problems" (falsifications, bad acts, etc..) and then you call my assumptions based on your lack of clarity straw. Just be clear. The point was whatever problems you opine with another religion you will have to distinguish how that isn't an attack in the way your using the term. But you havn't clarified what is an attack, you havn't even clarified why in a search for truth a false religion couldn't be described as such. But you think you have:

I have. When Rich equates my faith "false hopes, shattered dreams, and wasted lives" that is an attack!


I have personally experienced false hopes, shattered dreams and part of my life wasted by Mormonism - the truth isn't an attack it is a description and there are certainly enough people like myself that allow warrant for the statement. It is my truth. It also doesn't effect you one bit, your not forced or compelled one bit by him making that statement and he has every right to express his opinion just like you do.

]When Rich tells me "If it were not for the man who refuted Jehovah’s Witness doctrine I may have never realized the truth about how wrong the Jehovah’s Witnesses are!" that is an attack!


It is descriptive of Rich's personal experience. That's all. You can disagree and you can give you reasons for disagreement. Valid reasons are harder than just telling someone shut up your hateful.

When Rich says "My ministry is to paint an honest picture of these three branches of religion. Which if they had done so, there would be no need for my articles"
that is an attack!

No it isn't, it is an honest attempt by Rich to articulate in writing his understanding to others and for others to agree or disagree. He also seems quite willing and ready to make adjustments and changes in a honest way when given constructive criticism.

I don't know why Dawkins chooses to attack religion. I don't much care. This is about Rich. Will Rich man up and address my concerns?


Paul Eldridge said, there are those whose sole claim to profundity is the discovery of exceptions to the rules. You fall into that in a way, your just haven't even found a real exception here. You are in no position to insist or demand your concerns even be addressed by him. I might offer Rich another possibility for an article regarding the resulting effect of arrogance on many Mormon men. Maybe drop the cool routine ("man-up") and ask him nicely. The marketplace of ideas doesn't insulate any Simon, not even claims of the Father and Son in a grove, angels, gold-plates and living prophets. If those are truth you don't need to react the way you are. The truth can handle itself. You in fact should invite misunderstanding and let your sword of truth lay waste to it.

my best, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_rich kelsey
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _rich kelsey »

Because this thread is about my Website, for those interested I have decided to actually put up the intro of an article from my site richkelsey,org

This way readers can see the tone of the work and also evaluate the content — if it is an accurate history or not?

An Incredible Story Part IV — Those Mysterious Golden Plates

Rich Kelsey

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was raised in a time when magic filled the air. It is one of the most intriguing periods in American religious history. If one were to experience this era with today’s knowledge, they would have an opportunity to evaluate that history better than many who actually lived it. That is what we can do as we journey to 19th century America, to experience the mindset and lifestyle of Joseph Smith and his colleagues.

At one time Smith’s stories had all the flair one would expect from someone with his unique upbringing. Yet, over the years The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has sterilized the over the top lifestyle and activities Smith was once known for. Many plain and precious truths have being taken away.

Come with me as we turn back the hands of time to a period in Smith’s life which barely resembles what is taught by the LDS Church today. Together we will open the Church’s vault,[i] sift through various historical records, and document early Mormon history before the sugar-coating was applied. For some, this will be too bitter of a pill to swallow.[ii] Others will find healing through digesting its message.[iii]

Joseph Smith’s world consisted of:

· A “heavenly messenger”[iv] guarding gold plates.[v]

· “…telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone…”[vi]

And,

· Being able to “see anything” by looking through mysterious “glasses.”[vii]

Smith’s father testified that God had given his son,

“marvelous power”[viii]

Smith himself claimed,

“[he] possessed one of the attributes of Deity, an All-Seeing-Eye.”[ix]

What Joseph was actually talking about was a seer stone.[x]

Joseph claimed that when he,

“placed it in his hat... [he] discovered that time, place and distance were annihilated; [and] that all intervening obstacles were removed.”[xi]

This is the stuff that dreams are made of!

Imagine waking up in New York to find a world brimming with folklore,[xii] interspersed with folk-magic,[xiii] and steeped in strong religious views; that would be a dream come true for some. Meeting friends and neighbors with limited educations, who believe in the superstitions of the day, would certainly add color to the dream.

A Humble Beginning:

When the Mormon prophet was 10 years old his father moved the family from Sharon Vermont to Palmyra New York. The year was 1816. New York was frontier country; it had yet to be settled. Lumber was plentiful, game was abundant; the land was fertile.

For many, New York was a land of opportunity; yet for the Smith family, this move was just another stop on a long road of broken dreams. Hard work was necessary[xiv] to secure enough food to make it through the winters; and to procure enough cash to pay state imposed land taxes. They struggled with poverty ever since Joseph Smith Sr. lost the family farm, along with his wife’s dowry, in a money-making scheme exporting ginseng to China.

When they arrived in Palmyra, they bought another farm by making payments on a loan; they ended up losing this farm too; because they were not able to make the final payment in time. Once again the Smith family moved, this time to a nearby town in Western New York called Manchester, in Ontario County. Western New York was a land of mystery. Burial mounds blanketed the landscape.

Common folktales of the time included stories of the Vikings, or the lost ten tribes of Israel, being responsible for the numerous burial mounds found in America. Yet these folktales, unlike some of the tall tales that were common[xv] in the 1800s, were thought to be true.

People in the 1800s had several reasons to doubt that American Indians had constructed the burial mounds scattered across the land. The term "mound builder" back then had connotations of a mysterious,[xvi] ancient race. Envision Joseph Smith, in his formative years,[xvii] being raised[xviii] in an atmosphere[xix] where the mystery of the “mound builders” was the talk of the town.

The false belief that the Indians were not the peoples who built the mounds, but had actually killed off the “mound builders” was popular in Smith’s time. Driving Indians from their land was justified[xx] in the minds of many who believed the dark skinned[xxi] Indians had wiped out the ancient white skinned[xxii] “mound builders.” However, today we know the Native American Indians were the real “mound builders.”

On Golden Plates:

Joseph Smith was living on the family farm in Manchester, New York, when he became famous for his story of finding “gold plates.”[xxiii] As far as the story goes Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon from this golden record; which had been buried by America’s former inhabitants.

Speaking about the plates and how Smith first discovered them, Martin Harris, who was one of the Book of Mormon’s Three Witnesses, said:

“These plates were found at the north point of a hill two miles north of Manchester village. Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface. In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates… Joseph had had this stone for some time. There was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr. Stowel--I think his name was Josiah--also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph Smith, jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram [Hyrum] Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places. When Joseph found this stone, there was a company digging in Harmony, Pa., and they took Joseph to look in the stone for them, and he did so for a while… (Joel Tiffany, Interview with Martin Harris, in Tiffany's Monthly, 1859, New York, p.163-164)

In this interview Martin described a well documented event in Smith’s life, in which Smith used a stone in search of buried treasure.[xxiv] Smith himself talks about this briefly[xxv] in the History of the Church.

His father in law adds more detail to the story:

"Smith, and his father, with several other ‘money diggers’ boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards many years since. Young Smith, gave the ‘money diggers’ great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure could be found—he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see.

They then became discouraged, and soon after dispersed. This took place about the 17th of November, 1825…" (Affidavit from Isaac Hale, Joseph Smith’s father in law - March 20, 1834)

Joseph Smith’s father in law spelled out the word “enchantment” while describing what Smith said. Then, Martin Harris verifies that Smith used the word “enchantment” in the interview with Joel Tiffany.

Tiffany Interview Continued:

“… and then he [Joseph Smith] told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave it up.” (Joel Tiffany, Interview with Martin Harris, in Tiffany's Monthly, 1859, New York, p.163-164)

Joseph Smith was brought to court over this money digging venture.[xxvi] In the courtroom, while under oath, a fellow worker also used the term “enchantment” to describe why they gave up digging. This courtroom drama is commonly called Joseph Smith’s 1826 Glass Looking Trial.[xxvii]

Over the course of history some of the details have become sketchy. It’s possible that this ‘Trial’ was just a pre-trial hearing. However, there are several separate records of this court case; among the least biased of the records we find these words:

“Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner's professed skill; that the board which he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but, on account of an enchantment, the trunk kept settling away from under them while digging; that, not withstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them.” (1826 Trial, Tuttle account)

Thompson was among the men who were out digging for buried treasure during this dark hour[xxviii] in Smith’s life.

We have just documented various accounts of people saying that when Joseph Smith used the word “enchantment,” the money diggers became discouraged. “Enchantment” was once a common term used by those who spoke of, believed in, and/or practiced folk magic. The problems Smith and the rest of the money diggers were experiencing supposedly had to do with a treasure guardian[xxix] and/or a magic charm.[xxx]

The 1826 Trial record spelled out:

“… he [Joseph Smith] discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk; that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside of the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed.” (1826 Glass Looking Trial, Jonathan Thompson testimony, Tuttle account)

The words “as he supposed” are noteworthy! They give us a glimpse into Smith’s mindset. Joseph Smith was caught up in the understanding that a dead man, who was now a spirit, could keep watch over buried treasure.

Also, when Smith said,

“the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see”[xxxi]

he clearly indicated that he was dealing with an evil spirit. Smith believed that men who were evil in this life could remain on earth as evil spirits after death. In Smith’s mind he was waging

“war against this spirit of darkness.”[xxxii]

Endnotes:

[i] The LDS Church has certain documents containing primary source material locked away. On this subject, Mormon historian and former professor at BYU, Dennis Michael Quinn, wrote: “President Hinckley telephoned in June 1982 to say that he was sympathetic about a request I had written to obtain access to documents in the First Presidency's vault but that my request could not be granted...” (Article, THE SEPTEMBER SIX - 'THE LDS CHURCH SANCTIONS SIX PROMINENT SCHOLARS' 1993, Malcolm J. Vickery)

[ii] "I, along with colleagues, and drawing from years of research, find the evidence employed to support many traditional claims about the church to be either nonexistent or problematic. In other words, it didn't all happen the way we've been told.” (An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Grant H. Palmer, Signature Books, 2002, p. xii)

[iii] "The foundation events were rewritten by Joseph and Oliver and other early church officials so the church could survive and grow. This reworking made the stories more useful for missionary work and for fellowshipping purposes. But is this acceptable?” (An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Grant H. Palmer, Signature Books, 2002, p. 260)

[iv] “At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.” (History of the Church Vol. 1, 1:59)

[v] “He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants” (History of the Church Vol. 1. 1: 34)

[vi] “Josiah Stowel sworn. Says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months. Had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were, by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes, - once to tell him about money buried on Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt-spring, - and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and professed the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone…” [note: the words “pretended to have” were probably added by Miss Pearsall] (1826 Trial, Miss Pearsall Account, Josiah Stowell testimony)

[vii] ” When Joseph returned with the horse and carriage, he exclaimed, “It is ten times better than expected… Then he went on to tell the length and width and thickness of the plates’ and said, ‘they appear to be Gold…' But he seemed to think more of the glasses… [Joseph Smith said] ‘I can see anything; they are Marvelus (sic).’” (Joseph Knight’s Recollection - Joseph Smith’s Early History).

[viii] “Joseph Smith, Sr., was present, and sworn as a witness. He confirmed, at great length all that his son had said in his examination. He delineated his [son’s] characteristics in his youthful days--his vision of the luminous stone in the glass--his visit to Lake Erie in search of the stone--and his wonderful triumphs as a seer. He described very many instances of his finding hidden and stolen goods. He swore that both he and his son were mortified that this wonderful power which God had so miraculously given him should be used only in search of filthy lucre, or its equivalent in earthly treasures…” (1826 Trial, Purple account, Joseph Smith Sr. testimony)

[ix] “With some labor and exertion he found the stone, carried it to the creek, washed and wiped it dry, sat down on the bank, placed it in his hat, and discovered that time, place and distance were annihilated; that all intervening obstacles were removed, and that he possessed one of the attributes of Deity, an All-Seeing-Eye. He arose with a thankful heart, carried his tools to their owner, turned his feet towards the rising sun, and sought with weary limbs his long deserted home.” (Purple account, Joseph Smith Testimony, 1826 trial)

[x] D. Michael Quinn, former Mormon professor and historian at BYU spelled out: “During this period from 1827 to 1830, Joseph Smith abandoned the company of his former money-digging associates, but continued to use for religious purposes the brown seer stone he had previously employed in the treasure quest. His most intensive and productive use of the seer stone was in the translation of the Book of Mormon. But he also dictated several revelations to his associates through the stone.” (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, D. Michael Quinn, Signature Books, SLC, 1987, p. 143)

[xi] (Purple account, Joseph Smith Testimony, 1826 trial)

[xii] Pratt’s note: …“The fact that Joseph Smith with others did at one time seek for treasure, either that contained in mines, or that supposed to have been gathered by others and deposited by them in places of safety, the traces of which were lost, has formed a serious objection to Mormonism… It was rumored that in or near to Harmony, Pennsylvania… there had been found at some time in the past, rich silver deposits, from which the discoverers had taken fabulous sums, considerable portions of which had been coined, and left in safe places waiting the convenience of its owners to remove it; that owing to the uncertain and shifting nature of the times these hidden treasures had not been removed, but that the secret of their places of deposit and the mines whence they were taken had been lost.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, Coray, Pratt, 1853, endnote 82)

[xiii] ‘When the Manchester treasure seekers came looking for the plates, they brought divining rods and seer stones to assist them—the same kind of objects Joseph, and later Oliver, used to receive revelation.” 'I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God': Joseph Smith's Account of the Angel and the Plates, Larry R. Morris, Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2005).

[xiv] “I was born in the town of Charon in the (State) of Vermont North America on the twenty third day of December A D 1805 of goodly Parents who spared no pains to instructing me in (the) christian religion at the age of about ten years my Father Joseph Smith Siegnior moved to Palmyra Ontario County in the State of New York and being in indigent circumstances were obliged to labour hard for the support of a large Family having nine chilldren and as it required the exertions of all that were able to render any assistance for the support of the Family therefore we were deprived of the bennifit of an education suffice it to say I was mearly instructed in rules reading and writing and the ground (rules) of Arithmatic which constuted my whole literary acquirements.” (The Early Accounts of Joseph Smith’s First Vision, Dean C. Jessee, BYU Studies, copyright 1969, p.3) [original spelling: the words in brackets were written in above the original text]

[xv] The 1800s is known for its clever folklore, including tales about Paul Bunyan, Johnny Appleseed, and John Henry.

[xvi] “Mound Builders, in North American archaeology, name given to those people who built mounds in a large area from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico and from the Mississippi River to the Appalachian Mts. The greatest concentrations of mounds are found in the Mississippi and Ohio valleys. The term “Mound Builders” arose when the origin of the monuments was considered mysterious, most European Americans assuming that the Native Americans were too uncivilized for this accomplishment. In 1894, Cyrus Thompson of the Smithsonian Institution concluded that the Mound Builders were in fact the Native Americans…” (The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press)

[xvii] “By 1825 Joseph’s fame as a ‘peeper’ was wide spread. Josiah Stoal came from Chenango County to get Joseph’s assistance in digging for a silver mine…” (The Founder of Mormonism, Woodbridge Riley, Dodd, Mead & Co., 1903, p.189)

[xviii] "We are not able to determine whether the elder Smith was ever concerned in money digging transactions previous to his emigration from Vermont, or not, but it is a well authenticated fact that soon after his arrival here, he evinced a firm belief in the existence of hidden treasures, and that this section of country abounded in them. -- He also revived, or in other words, propagated the vulgar, yet popular belief that these treasures were held in charge by some evil spirit...” (THE REFLECTOR February 1, 1831)

[xix] Over the last two decades, many historians have reconsidered the origins of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the context of the early American tradition of treasure hunting. Well into the nineteenth century there were European Americans hunting for buried wealth. Some believed in treasures that were protected by magic spells or guarded by preternatural beings. (Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian, Mark Ashurst-McGee, BYU, NY Faculty, p 1., 1999, FARMS – Review, 2006)

[xx] “The US removal in the 1830s of most American Indians from the mound builder regions, by means of the forced Trail of Tears, was partly justified by the theory that the Indians had destroyed the mound builders. Because some thought that the mound builders may have been ancient Europeans, the removal of the Indian tribes was justified to reclaim European land, as well as to ensure the safety of civilization.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_builder_(people)#Hoaxes)

[xxi] Mormonism teaches that America’s former inhabitants were white and had sailed to America from the Holy Land:

“O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.” (Jacob 3:8) This verse in Jacob 3:8 implies that when dark skinned people repent of their wickedness, their curse will be lifted, and their skins will once again become white.

Also:

“And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.” (3 Nephi 2:15)

[xxii] “And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.” (2 Nephi 5:21)

[xxiii] “He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;” (Joseph Smith History—1:34)

[xxiv] “Joseph Smith, founding prophet of the Mormon religion, had participated in several treasure-hunting expeditions in his youth.” (Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian, Mark Ashurst-McGee, BYU, NY Faculty, p 1., 1999, FARMS – Review, 2006)

[xxv] “…In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger.” (History of the Church Vol. 1:56)

[xxvi] ARTICLES OF AGREEMENT

We, the undersigned, do firmly agree, and by these present bind ourselves, to fulfill and abide by the hereafter specified articles:

First: That if anything of value should he obtained at a certain place in Pennsylvania near a William Hales, supposed to be a valuable mine of either gold or silver and also to contain coined money and bars or ingots of gold or silver, and at which several hands have been at work during a considerable part of the past summer, we do agree to have it divided in the following manner, viz: Josiah Stowell, Calvin Stowell and Walmart. Hale to take two-thirds, and Charles Newton, Walmart. I. Wiley, and the widow Harper to take the other third. And we further agree that Joseph Smith, Sen. and Joseph Smith Jr. shall be considered as having two shares, two elevenths of all the property that may be obtained, and shares to be taken equally from each third.

Second: And we further agree, that in consideration of the expense and labor to which the following named persons have been at (Johs F. Shepherd, Elijah Stowell and John Grant) to consider them as equal sharers in the mine after all the coined money and bars or ingot are obtained by the undersigned. Their shares to be taken out from each share; and we further agree to remunerate all the three above named persons in a handsome manner for all their time, expense, and labor which they have been or may be at, until the mine is opened, if anything should be obtained; otherwise they are to lose their time, expense and labor.

Third: And we further agree that all the expense which has or may accrue until the mine is opened, shall be equally borne by the proprietors of each third and that after the mine is opened the expense shall be equally borne by each of the shares.

Township of Harmony, Pennsylvania, November 1, 1825 In presence of:

Isaac Hale
Joseph Smith Sen.

David Hale
Isaiah Stowell

P. Newton
Calvin Stowell

Charles A. Newton
Joseph Smith Jr.

Walmart. I. Wiley

[xxvii] “William D. Purple took notes at the trial and tells us, "In February, 1826, the sons of Mr. Stowell, ...were greatly incensed against Smith, ...saw that the youthful seer had unlimited control over the illusions of their sire...”(Francis Kirkham, A New Witness for Christ in America: The Book of Mormon, 2 vols., (Salt Lake City: Utah Printing, 1959[1942], 1:479. ASIN B000HMY138)
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
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Re: The 1826 Glass Looking Trial

Post by _cafe crema »

Simon Belmont wrote:
jon wrote:Simon, why don't Mormon's practice what you preach?

Simon, why don't you practice what you preach?


We do.

I do.


No you don't, you all knock on my door ignoring my "No Soliciting" sign. You and the SDA and the JW do not leave me alone, and the summer pestering season is here again.
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _moksha »

Can one be both a good Christian and a Christian soldier? When Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, he meant stand your ground but not run the other through with your particular sword of likes and dislikes.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _cafe crema »

Simon Belmont wrote:[


When Rich tells me "If it were not for the man who refuted Jehovah’s Witness doctrine I may have never realized the truth about how wrong the Jehovah’s Witnesses are!" that is an attack!


Attack?? Nonsense when he says that it's a testimony, plain and simple. Similar to oh say "If it wasn't for the missionaries(LDS of course) I would still be following the traditions of men".
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

When will Simon's systematic attacks against Rich stop?
_Simon Belmont

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Rich,

Will you address my concerns?

Why do you attack other faiths?
Do you understand the similar problems inherent in your own?
Does attacking other faiths bring about Christian love, or hate?
_Valorius
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Valorius »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Valorius wrote:Since you can't keep even your own arguments in order, why should I go off on this tangent with you. The POINT is, if you could but grasp it, that "steering people away" from something is not equivalent to hating the people involved in that something.
You brought it up.
Steering people away from something because it's "false hopes, shattered dreams, and wasted lives" is an attack, especially when it's a lie.
You seem to have nothing constructive or informational to offer. "You brought it up" is irrelevant, shows you miss the point of the quote, and is a non-response. I'm not saying that is unusual or atypical. It is the contrary. (by the way, I am not the one who "brought it up.")

As for the more substantive part of your responsette, it is foolish to accuse Mr. A of attacking Mr. B when, as Mr. B. approaches a six hundred foot precipice in hopes of spotting the lasts living dodo, Mr. A steers him away from his foolishly false hope, his certain to be shattered dream, and a wasted life.

And if Mr. C warns Mr. D of a precipice that is not there, and Mr. D hears and heeds the warning, however false it may be, Mr. C has not attacked Mr. D at all. It is Mr. E, who shoves Mr. D over the edge of Mr A's precipice who has precipitated an attack.

The remainder of your wannabe control freak post, being equally ill thought, ill composed, off target, and vacuous, I let stand as a monument to emptiness.

by the way, I think Rich has put you on his ignore list.
If so, yelling at him is like looking into Joseph Smith's hat for a translation of Reformed Egyptian.
There is no answer.
_Valorius
_Emeritus
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:17 pm

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Valorius »

rich kelsey wrote:Because this thread is about my Website, for those interested I have decided to actually put up the intro of an article from my site richkelsey,org

This way readers can see the tone of the work and also evaluate the content — if it is an accurate history or not?
Thanks, Rich. I've read some of your articles. There is nothing nasty or vindictive in them, as far as I can tell. You maintained a good tone of objectivity. You were clear and accurate, again, as far as I can tell. Your provided citations. I wish instead of attacking you, some people would go to the citations. If they have a problem with the citation, go to the Source or Defender of those. I understand that would take more guts (plus patience and finesse) than some of your critics have put on display here and in the Celestial Kingdom, which should be a realm of mutual respect and kindness. Doncha just hate it when a Terrestrial level spirit sticks his nose in there just to stir up trouble and maybe cause another war in heaven?
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