Why I lost my virginity

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_MsJack
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _MsJack »

Socrates wrote:Dr. Peterson, does "soaking" (coitus interruptus) carry a different sin denotation (and punishment) in Mormon theology/penitence than if there was ejaculation by the male while in the vagina?

Once there is penetration of the vagina, that is enough for coitus for rape. Is it different for Mormons in non-rape situations? Has fornication not occurred without ejaculation?

If not, why then did you need to probe?

He needed to probe because he needed to know whether the person in question (or couple in question---I've missed the details here) was working with some kind of technical definition of the "law of chastity" which, in their mind, allowed for something like coitus interruptus before marriage. Or in other words, he needed to know whether or not someone else thought coitus interruptus was less sinful than full coitus, when it isn't.

This kind of scenario is really quite common among young people from conservative religious backgrounds. When I was 16, I had a devout Catholic friend (she was a freshman in college) who asked me about whether or not I thought oral sex was okay before marriage. I honestly didn't know what to tell her. I'd never thought of the question, and the leaders at the Nazarene and Presbyterian churches I'd attended throughout my teens had never discussed it with the youth. We all knew sex before marriage was bad, but we seldom discussed what else counted as "too far"---and I partially blame youth leaders for this, because I think they were too embarrassed to discuss it with us. My friend did indeed go on to have all kinds of non-vaginal sex with her boyfriend, and this was a young woman with a riveting testimony of how she had said "no" to sex with her former boyfriend at her senior prom because she believed it was wrong.

There was a study some number of years ago (snippet on it here) showing that religious teens who pledge virginity until marriage engage in oral sex and anal sex more often than other teens. That's probably because they refuse to carry condoms as that would be like premeditating the sin, then they wind up skipping vaginal to avoid pregnancy. But it's also likely that they don't think anal sex or oral sex count as "sex before marriage."

I have serious dislike for the LDS system of ecclesiastical interviews. You couldn't pay me enough money to sit alone in a room with a man or men and let them ask me about my sexual history or my pregnancy history, and if my daughter is still attending the LDS church when she hits the age for those interviews to start, her bishops had better get used to having a chaperone in the room. I know from personal experience that LDS bishops can and do ask questions that are inappropriate and go beyond the scope of what their calling asks them to do.

That said, with the system being what it is, I don't see the scandal in an LDS bishop trying to determine whether or not someone thinks coitus interruptus counts as breaking the law of chastity. It's entirely plausible that a bishop would need to ask that according to the expectations of his calling. If anyone wants to attack the system, fine, but I'm against attacking the people who are merely doing what the system asks them to do.

Or in short, I guess I'm just not seeing the scandal here.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

My thanks to MsJack.

Inconceivable wrote:Using your family as a human shield in an attempt to insulate yourself from your own aggressive behavior

Good grief.

Inconceivable wrote:How much do you really care about them?

Is it really necessary, simply because you disdain my faith and hate me, to imagine that I'm so unnatural, so thoroughly depraved, that I don't even really care about my own family?

Inconceivable wrote:I would rather see bullies like you busying themselves in a defensive posture than personally attacking others. So we'll see. You deserve it.

I take it that you're not a fan of mine. Have I got that right?

Inconceivable wrote:In the meantime, why don't you try to be intelligent enough to be nice.

No. Niceness isn't in my nature, and doesn't fit my agenda. You're the first one who's really grasped my true character, but you still seem to be a bit naïve. I don't do "nice" or "kind." I'm unfailingly vicious and cruel and unethical, and quite proud of it. The other people in my life just haven't yet put the picture together, as you have.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Jason Bourne »

This is really one of the dumbest damn threads I have seen on this board. Right from the OP (why one would post publicly about such things is beyond me) to the end. And I empathize with Dr Peterson having sat where he sits. I know some bishops may ask too much but I beleive most don't and knowing Dr Peterson ( and knowing myself as well) I can tell you neither of us would have ever asked out of sheer perverted curiosity and certainly would not ever be happy about such discussions. It is a tough spot. But sure when someone in the LDS system that encourages face to face confession for certain things the confessor can be a bit nervous and reluctant and even hedge a bit. And the bishop has a job to understand the nature of the sins. And I can imagine that it is tougher and more a frequent thing in a student ward.

At least I understand you Dr Peterson. Maybe only one who has sat in the bishop's chair having never sought it can. The lewdness and questions as well as treatment a few are giving you about this on this thread is uncalled for.
_Yoda

Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Yoda »

Jason Bourne wrote:This is really one of the dumbest damn threads I have seen on this board. Right from the OP (why one would post publicly about such things is beyond me) to the end. And I empathize with Dr Peterson having sat where he sits. I know some bishops may ask too much but I beleive most don't and knowing Dr Peterson ( and knowing myself as well) I can tell you neither of us would have ever asked out of sheer perverted curiosity and certainly would not ever be happy about such discussions. It is a tough spot. But sure when someone in the LDS system that encourages face to face confession for certain things the confessor can be a bit nervous and reluctant and even hedge a bit. And the bishop has a job to understand the nature of the sins. And I can imagine that it is tougher and more a frequent thing in a student ward.

At least I understand you Dr Peterson. Maybe only one who has sat in the bishop's chair having never sought it can. The lewdness and questions as well as treatment a few are giving you about this on this thread is uncalled for.

Amen, Jason!

Having known both Jason and Dan for a number of years now, I can attest that both men are of the highest caliber and anyone who had an opportunity to be in the wards where they served as bishop were lucky, indeed.
_Inconceivable
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Inconceivable »

Daniel Peterson wrote:My thanks to MsJack.

Inconceivable wrote:Using your family as a human shield in an attempt to insulate yourself from your own aggressive behavior

Good grief.

Inconceivable wrote:How much do you really care about them?

Is it really necessary, simply because you disdain my faith and hate me, to imagine that I'm so unnatural, so thoroughly depraved, that I don't even really care about my own family?

Inconceivable wrote:I would rather see bullies like you busying themselves in a defensive posture than personally attacking others. So we'll see. You deserve it.

I take it that you're not a fan of mine. Have I got that right?

Inconceivable wrote:In the meantime, why don't you try to be intelligent enough to be nice.

No. Niceness isn't in my nature, and doesn't fit my agenda. You're the first one who's really grasped my true character, but you still seem to be a bit naïve. I don't do "nice" or "kind." I'm unfailingly vicious and cruel and unethical, and quite proud of it. The other people in my life just haven't yet put the picture together, as you have.

Dan,

Why don't you pull out already (pun intended).

poser.
_stemelbow
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _stemelbow »

Hey there, Inconceivable,

May I suggest you are hurting your own reputation by harrassing Dr. Peterson like you have done in this thread? I mean you certainly aren't alone in the amount of hate you seem to nurture, but annonymously revealing your hate through this message board can't be healthy behavior, no? Might be best to let it all go, breath deep, and focus your attention on something more productive. Just a thought. I don't think we need to see another Dr. Scratch, do we?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Inconceivable wrote:poser

In'able:

I've never used this site, myself, but I think you might find it helpful as you compose your future posts to and about me.

No need to thank me.
_Joey
_Emeritus
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Joey »

Provo wrote:The other people in my life just haven't yet put the picture together, as you have.


Are you attempting to convince us you have a life other than this message board?


Provo wrote:When I  vacation, I go with just with my wife......


Yeah - like last week in Colorado as you have emphasized.  Yet you never missed a day posting here last week - now that's a real vacation, getting away from the "board" w your wife!  

And let's not forget your classic response from this past weekend when I noted your midnight posting on a weekend nite!:

I had just returned from a concert in Salt Lake City.


And the first thing one does is jump on the computer to post on message boards?  Hey, do it every weekend!  NOT!  Let me send you a great book on romance and affection.  Won't find the word "keyboard" in it though!

And it looks like a typicL week in your life so far - posting here from "wake-up to retiring at night".  What 10-20-30 posts a day.  

Geeze Provo, step away from the screen and keyboard for some time to get to know the wife and kids again! Have a "real" vacation!  (Check w the church first of course - we know holding even a tenured job is  tough in these times!)
"It's not so much that FARMS scholarship in the area Book of Mormon historicity is "rejected' by the secular academic community as it is they are "ignored". [Daniel Peterson, May, 2004]
_Abaddon
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Abaddon »

cinepro wrote:
Abaddon wrote:Anyone else commit a sin (any sin) because they had already committed it "in your heart"?


Frankly, that's a pretty sad misunderstanding of the teaching.

And I'm assuming that you had (mercifully) never read Mark 9:43 and applied a similarly literalistic reading or things could have been much worse.


It is, isn't it?

Actually, I was aware of the cutting off the hand, but I remember believing it was symbolic of a friendship, i.e. if your right hand (your right hand man -- your best friend) offend thee (or cause thee to sin) cut it off -- end the friendship.

Anyway, that's how I thought of the Mark teaching. But yes, you are right. A pretty bad misunderstanding of the teaching.

Yet, my current Bishop just a few months ago was talking about this very thing (lusting after a woman in your heart) and said that porn is like adultery to him.

Anyway, Thanks for the response.
_Abaddon
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Re: Why I lost my virginity

Post by _Abaddon »

Rambo wrote:
Abaddon wrote:
I'm curious if anyone else fell into the same rationalization I made based on what you were taught about "sinning in your heart".


NOOO!!!! Well it least I didn't rationalize that much but I should have.

Did you read the saddest thread on this discussion board called "Missed opportunities to sin." I think shades said it was the saddest thread.

However, I think I did rationalize little sins like downloading music and not paying for it or speeding in my car. There was usually a bunch of stuff I would rationalize everyday.


Haven't seen the "missed opportunities to sin". Anyway, mine is more like, missed opportunities to enjoy sinning. I sinned, but was so ridden with guilt the enjoyment was never there.
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