The Israelites of old were regarded by the Egyptians as people from the land of Amuru, meaning the land of the Amorites which the Israelites conquered. Another term applied to the general Syrian area was "Retenu". The name "Upper Retenu"1 corresponded to the geographical space encompassed by the Land of Israel, according to the Bible. People from the area known as "Amuru" or "Retenu" after ca.1400 BCE are presumably Israelites. They are depicted on Egyptian monuments as red, blonde, or black-haired with frequent blue eyes and red beards. Illustrations of individuals with this appearance are automatically assumed by Egyptologists to pertain to the Israelite or "Syrian" area. Another blonde blue-eyed people depicted on Egyptian monuments were the so-called "Libyans" and it has now been shown by Alessandra Nibbi (1989) that these were not dwellers of "Libya" but rather of the Nile Delta and of Hebrew origin.
On the Egyptian pictures skins of individuals from the Israelite or "Syrian" area are often light colored and pinkish3.
In addition darker individuals from these same areas are also depicted and sometimes they are the majority. The identification of the "Amuru" people depicted with Israelites may be confirmed from illustrations of an Egyptian monarch and his campaign against the Tribes of Israel: In about 924 BCE the king of Egypt, Shishak, invaded Judah and the (then) separate state of North Israel. Pictures of the campaign of Shishak reveal him receiving homage from the King of Judah and from the heads of cities and dignitaries in Judah and throughout northern ISRAEL. The personages depicted are of "Amuru" type and these pictures are sometimes even used as typifying the Egyptian depiction of "Amuru" characteristics. In the said context "Amuru" in effect often meant Israelite. It seems that the ancient Hebrews were a people of mixed kinds. This concept is apparently confirmed by Talmudic sources. One Midrash says that amongst the Tribes of Simeon and Levi very light-colored types (bohakanim) were common. On the other hand, a Talmudic Mishna (Negaim 2;1) says that Israelites (meaning in this case, the Jews of Judah) are mainly of an intermediate type coloring being neither black like a "Cushi" (Negro) nor light like a "Germani". "Germani" in Talmudic terminology (Aruch HaShalem) meant someone from the far north at that time or who looked like people from that area and the term could be applied to a very light colored person (Maimonides) like part of the people of Scandinavia. Joseph, the son of Israel, was described in a Midrash (Genesis Rabah 86;3), as looking like a GERMANI (i.e. like someone from the North, very white, fair, according to Maimonides) and in another passage (Talmud Sota 36) as having a face that was "pink like a rose". It follows that Joseph was considered as having been of Nordic appearance which was a known familial trait since Joseph is also said to have looked exactly like his father. [On the other hand it is implied that Joseph was exceptional in this regard]. Joseph (Ephraim and Menasseh) was the leading tribal group in the Northern Kingdom. The above sources indicate that the original twelve tribes of Israel were of mixed physical types and that in some tribes or geographical regions one kind was more dominant than others. It has also been stated that the Tribes tended to marry only within themselves and thus physical differences between different tribes were emphasized4. The claim may also be made that peoples of the same areas of otherwise entirely different physical characteristics often have the same coloring5. A mixed genetic stock of similar but different variations will produce over a long period more often the type that is most adaptable to the surrounding environment. This is not evolution. It is adaptation of an already existing physical entity (i.e. a group of people) to empirical circumstance in accordance with its already existing genetic potential.
The suggestion that physical environment influences inherited appearance and that the Israelite Tribes were of differing types, should not surprise anybody -both ideas are indicated in the Bible and in Oral Tradition.
Regarding external influences, it is related in the Book of Genesis how Jacob was set to mind flocks of sheep and goats belonging to his father-in-law, Laban (Genesis 30; 31-43). The sheep were either all white or of mixed-coloring whereas the goats were all black or mixed-colored. Jacob was inspired to utilize external influences in order to activate inherent genetic potential and produce the type of coloring he desired as explained in the Bible and elaborated by us in "The Tribes".
As for different types having been present in the ancestry of Israelite Tribes from the very beginning, Jacob (i.e. Israel) the Fore-Father was twin-brother to Esau who was "Admoni" (i.e. red-haired. "Admoni" is sometimes translated as "ruddy" but more correctly meaning "red-haired" or golden-haired) and hairy (Genesis 25; 25) whereas Jacob was smooth-skinned (Genesis 27;11). David, King of Israel, was also an "Admoni" (1-Samuel 16;22) meaning red or golden haired. Laban, the father-in-law of Jacob has a name meaning "Whitish" and which is cognate with the English word "blond."6 On the other hand the Shepherdess in the Song of Solomon (1;6) announces, "I am black but comely...". The Tribal Patriarchs all took women from different nations and in the course of time the separate genetic potentials combined with differing environments would have produced distinctly different types. The area of ancient Israelite settlement contained climates varying from the semi-tropical to the Alpine.
You may want to consider passing on the whole Christian thing and going to a belief in Celtic Gods. At least they were all Nordic.
With Christianity you're stuck with a Semitic God and a Semitic Christ (this must be very annoying to you). At least with the Celtic Gods you have some blondes to worship.
Given your racist point of view, I don't think we have anything more to discuss.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
And Nader could pass as any European :P [img]http://www.religionfacts.com/politics/ralph_nader.jpgp/img]
I will go out on a limb and say Levantine people have more in common with Europeans than they will a true 'arabid' person from Saudi Arabia or Yemen.
It's hard to say whether Jesus was 'white' since the term white is rather vague. But I do think it's safe to admit He could have possibly been a Europid or Europid-looking.
There has been an interjection of European genes into the Middle East since the time of the Romans (the Roman armies were made up of people from all over Europe... lots of Germans, etc.).
Before the Romans. According to the Kurgan hypothesis, Indo-Europeans stretched out from the Black Sea into Ireland & India.
SO the idea that Ashkenazi Jews are light because of mixing with Europeans is bogus.
Yeah I don't know where Ashkenazi's whiteness comes from. I'll see if I can find the link to the study, but they recently found out that Ashkenazis genetically differ from Europeans much more than previously. Meaning they were pretty much isolated from 'whites' despite spending so much time in Europe. I still like the Khazar theory, where they were originally a group of actual Caucasian people (as in the Caucasus region) that converted to Judaism and later on mixed with other Jews.
Flash wrote:Yeah I don't know where Ashkenazi's whiteness comes from. I'll see if I can find the link to the study, but they recently found out that Ashkenazis genetically differ from Europeans much more than previously. Meaning they were pretty much isolated from 'whites' despite spending so much time in Europe. I still like the Khazar theory, where they were originally a group of actual Caucasian people (as in the Caucasus region) that converted to Judaism and later on mixed with other Jews.
Coupled with genetic mixing with European which definitely happened to some degree we can't ignore the environmental factor of living in Northern Europe for hundreds of years (Germany/Poland/Eastern Europe). Less sunlight = paler skin.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07
MASH quotes I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it. I avoid church religiously. This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
The leader of Syria and his Syrian wife. Many Syrians, who like the Lebanese, are closely related to the Jews have blue eyes and can even have blonde hair. Sure, you can claim this is due to European influence (slaves brought in from Europe or Crusades) but this region also had infusions of genes from African female slaves (males were often castrated and thus did not reproduce with the Arabs), people from southern Yemen during the Islamic conquests and also the armies of Ghengis Khan, but the weird part is that the more isolated communities (geographically and therefore genetically) tend to have more people born who look like the two people featured in the picture.
So, since red hair appears in the Jewish population statistically more than any other ethnic group, and Esau and David had red hair, maybe Jesus had red hair as it ran in his family. However he could have had dark hair as Solomon is described as having black hair. He might have had blonde hair but that might not be as common in the Hebrew population...unless God is a blonde.
Saw a documentary on History Network on Cleopatra. They noted what kind of make-up she probably wore and noted that she probably had blue or green eyes since her family was Greek. They noted light eyes were common with this as well as the Roman population. So again, we are left with mere speculation as to what Jesus looked like, just as if we had no pictures of Joseph Smith far into the future and had to speculate what people in NY looked like.
When I grew up I was told many times (in context of Eternal Progression) that people are White in Heaven. There is no such thing as dark skin. I was also told being born Caucasian was an indicator of one's righteousness in the pre-Existence. I wonder if any Mormons on this board would disagree...
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
