I exclude you out of respect...

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

[That's not okay but it's also not okay for Oaks to extend a courtesy?

What the hell IS okay?

I don't know how it can exactly be called a "courtesy." What was the story about Sir Walter Raleigh? He laid his cape down in the mud so the queen could step over the mud without soiling her shoes? That's a courtesy. If he'd just gotten up and announced that the queen might just as well go back in the castle because nobody really needed her where she was going anyway ... that's not a courtesy.

Oaks' comment sounds more like marginalization of women in general; i.e., all they care about is keeping their tiny little designer shoes clean and dry. Now, a 79-yr-old man who has two wives can't necessarily be expected to be enlightened on a point like this, but it's never too late, is it?

[_Blixa]

I disagree Jersey Girl. 79 is not that old. My dad is not a sexist, he was capable of learning to truly respect women rather than conform to the hypocrisy of "pedestal respect." Oaks was a university president in the 70's for crying out loud! Even if it was at BYU, surely he had to brush up against real world concerns at some point.

I think justme's OP was less about criticizing Oaks as a person than it was an off-the-cuff remark about noticing the sexist coding in every Mormon ceremony. Temple ground breaking is hardly minor, and the exclusion here, though relatively small is not unconnected to other, bigger, "exclusions."

Like I said, a quick, but salient observation. That then got blown out of all proportion by one of our resident trolls who used it, like he uses nearly every remark made on the board by a woman, as an occasion for multiple one-note posting.

Justme should learn to exclude him out of respect...

[_Jersey Girl]

So now I am not only sick and tired, I am home from work sick and tired. Anything could happen now, fair warning given. ;-)

[That's not okay but it's also not okay for Oaks to extend a courtesy?

What the hell IS okay?

I don't know how it can exactly be called a "courtesy." What was the story about Sir Walter Raleigh? He laid his cape down in the mud so the queen could step over the mud without soiling her shoes? That's a courtesy. If he'd just gotten up and announced that the queen might just as well go back in the castle because nobody really needed her where she was going anyway ... that's not a courtesy.

Oaks' comment sounds more like marginalization of women in general; i.e., all they care about is keeping their tiny little designer shoes clean and dry.

First off, I don't SEE any comment by Elder Oaks. I see a REPORT. I also don't see any comment that says "tiny little designer shoes".

Who is marginalizing women? You or Oaks?

Now, a 79-yr-old man who has two wives can't necessarily be expected to be enlightened on a point like this, but it's never too late, is it?

Is there something offensive about women of this current generation attempting to enlighten themselves also? How many bitch posts are on this board about husbands? They don't help do housework, they don't pay us enough attention...

so, an elderly gentlemen does something nice for the women present at a ceremony and we're going to bitch about that too?

When do the men get appreciation around here?

Is this because Elder Oaks is an LDS mucky muck? Why ding him because he is acting like an older LDS mucky muck?

I mean seriously, I don't blame men for being frustrated with women sometimes.

What if Oaks had said, "You know what ladies? It's windy and rainy today. I don't want to get MY shoes wet so tell you what, all the sisters can come forward and do the digging while all of us men sit on our patriarchal asses and watch."

Then, folks here would be bitching because he made women do the dirty work.

How is this guy supposed to win here??????????

Of course, he might have acknowledged the weather conditions and opened an invitation to ALL. But he didn't and so what? I am more than certain that he opens the door for his wife and extends courtesy to her on a daily basis.

It is what men of his generation and particularly, the LDS culture DO.

He is living his freaking religion and what, we're all shocked at that?

Well, I'm not.

[_Jersey Girl]

I disagree Jersey Girl. 79 is not that old. My dad is not a sexist, he was capable of learning to truly respect women rather than conform to the hypocrisy of "pedestal respect." Oaks was a university president in the 70's for crying out loud! Even if it was at BYU, surely he had to brush up against real world concerns at some point.

I think justme's OP was less about criticizing Oaks as a person than it was an off-the-cuff remark about noticing the sexist coding in every Mormon ceremony. Temple ground breaking is hardly minor, and the exclusion here, though relatively small is not unconnected to other, bigger, "exclusions."

Like I said, a quick, but salient observation. That then got blown out of all proportion by one of our resident trolls who used it, like he uses nearly every remark made on the board by a woman, as an occasion for multiple one-note posting.

Justme should learn to exclude him out of respect...

Wait just a New York minute, Blox. ;-)

So, any time a guy does something he thinks is nice for a woman, now he is "sexist"?

I'm sorry, but that's a boatload of political BS.

If it symbolizes sexism in the LDS church to some folks here, maybe they should think about it more. Lobbing grenades at guy for doing something he believes is nice for a woman, isn't good thinking nor is it good practice.

Let me tell ya a little story. When I met up with Jason Bourne, on the way out of the building, he opened the door for me.

Now, my kids sometimes refer to me as a crazy feminist, but there was not a thing in Bourne's gesture that offended me.

Maybe we women should check our own insecurity level and see if we are functioning from a point of sexist overkill ourselves.

[_Jersey Girl]

No one answered my question.

Do men traditionally do the ground breaking at a temple ceremony?
Are there any instances of women doing this?

[_Yoda]

No one answered my question.

Do men traditionally do the ground breaking at a temple ceremony?
Are there any instances of women doing this?

Ms. Jack pointed out in a prior post that this appears to be strictly an "Elder Oaks" issue. There are women participating in several other groundbreaking ceremonies presided over by other Church leaders at other sites:

viewtopic.php?p=511120#p511120

[_Jersey Girl]

No one answered my question.

Do men traditionally do the ground breaking at a temple ceremony?
Are there any instances of women doing this?

Ms. Jack pointed out in a prior post that this appears to be strictly an "Elder Oaks" issue. There are women participating in several other groundbreaking ceremonies presided over by other Church leaders at other sites:

viewtopic.php?p=511120#p511120

Okay, I looked at that. I googled up the Payton temple ceremony and if I got the right photos, the crowd is sitting there with umbrellas. So, the rain accounts for the mud.

I don't think this was an "Elder Oaks thing", I think it was a crappy weather thing and he was trying to be considerate.

It looked as if there were some kind of mulch around the spectator chairs, so this likely would have provided ground cover for the spectators. In front of the podium is mud. The podium itself is covered with a canopy, so I think the presence of the astro turf is irrelevant.

I can't believe I am even picking this apart to this extent.

I must be bored.

Or home sick and tired.
:-)

[_Yoda]

Or home sick and tired.

To quote Bill Cosby..."And tired always follows sick!" ;-)

Sorry you're under the weather. Hope you feel better soon!

[_LDSToronto]

Maybe the bigger question is - why do we need another bloody temple?

[_Rambo]

Do they have a list of people they want up for the ground breaking ceremony beforehand?

Couldn't some of the women been asked privately before and given the option to come up. If they don't want to come up because of the mud then that is fine.

I think he is making the decision for the women himself. He could've given them the option to come up.

Anyways, even if it was freakin muddy there would be plenty of women that would jump at that opportunity and they would be bearing testimony about it later.