Still Baptizing Jews

[_sock puppet]

Since Mormons do posthumous sealings (marriages), who gets to do the posthumous consummations?

[_Quasimodo]

In the spirit of reconciliation perhaps the Church could introduce a temple ordinance of posthumous circumcision...

Excellent idea! A new calling. Necro-Mohel.

[_ludwigm]

In the spirit of reconciliation perhaps the Church could introduce a temple ordinance of posthumous circumcision...

Excellent idea! A new calling. Necro-Mohel.

It wouldn't be effective. Proxies could do it only once.

[_Chap]

...

The explanations given by the Jews that do complain about Mormon posthumous ordinances do not hold water, I agree. ....

I don't agree at all. One major complaint takes the form of

"Leave our families out of your church. We don't need you to imply that our grandfather - and by extension those of us who live like him today - lived an incomplete life religiously speaking, and that he or we need your help to get right with God. When our families need your help, we'll ask you."

That seems to me completely legitimate.

But by complaining, aren't they conceding that there might be some efficacy to the procedure about which they are complaining?

No. They are complaining that it is offensive of the Mormon church to conduct ceremonies which by their very nature and proclaimed purpose imply that Jews, and in particular members of their family, living as well as dead, need to become Mormons.

No belief in the efficacy of the ceremony is required.

[_sock puppet]

...

The explanations given by the Jews that do complain about Mormon posthumous ordinances do not hold water, I agree. ....

I don't agree at all. One major complaint takes the form of

"Leave our families out of your church. We don't need you to imply that our grandfather - and by extension those of us who live like him today - lived an incomplete life religiously speaking, and that he or we need your help to get right with God. When our families need your help, we'll ask you."

That seems to me completely legitimate.

But by complaining, aren't they conceding that there might be some efficacy to the procedure about which they are complaining?

No. They are complaining that it is offensive of the Mormon church to conduct ceremonies which by their very nature and proclaimed purpose imply that Jews, and in particular members of their family, living as well as dead, need to become Mormons.

No belief in the efficacy of the ceremony is required.

For Mormonism, it's not just the implication from a conduct (posthumous, proxy ordinances). Mormonism has expressly proclaimed that all people, Jews included, need to become Mormons. Mormonism has a long and storied history of salvation intolerance of other religions.

[_sock puppet]

Chap,

Should I take offense that in PEC meetings of the ward in which my house is located, I'm am sometimes talked about as a 'project' for re-activation/re-baptism? They are using me to fulfill their perceived religious duties.

Should I go on Bill Maher and complain about it?

[_Chap]

Chap,

Should I take offense that in PEC meetings of the ward in which my house is located, I'm am sometimes talked about as a 'project' for re-activation/re-baptism? They are using me to fulfill their perceived religious duties.

Why not? You have the right to have whatever reaction you want to have, especially (as is implied by your question) if your status as a project needing to be rescued from his own wickedness is well known outside the PEC meetings of the ward.

Should I go on Bill Maher and complain about it?

You can try, but I don't think he'll find your problem quite as interesting as those of some others with more dramatic complaints (involving, for instance, mass racial murder and posthumous attempts at religious conversion.)

[_sock puppet]

Chap,

Should I take offense that in PEC meetings of the ward in which my house is located, I'm am sometimes talked about as a 'project' for re-activation/re-baptism? They are using me to fulfill their perceived religious duties.

Why not? You have the right to have whatever reaction you want to have, especially (as is implied by your question) if your status as a project needing to be rescued from his own wickedness is well known outside the PEC meetings of the ward.

Not really discussing the 'right' to do so. No one can stop me from taking offense at anything. Offense is an emotion, not within the realm of that which outside forces may really prevent if my psyche is so inclined. As my 'right', I can take offense at everything and anything. But why?

The more interesting question is 'should I?' That goes more to whether I would be acting reasonably in taking offense to it. I could worry myself all day, everyday if I concerned myself with what a religion that has never been a part of my life was doing, whether in the name of my dead ancestry or not. The question really is whether those complaining Jewish people)are being hypersensitive and obsessing over something that they think has no effect in the first place.

Should I go on Bill Maher and complain about it?

You can try, but I don't think he'll find your problem quite as interesting as those of some others with more dramatic complaints (involving, for instance, mass racial murder and posthumous attempts at religious conversion.)

Seems to me that it is more pertinent to be concerned about living people's efforts directed at me while I am alive than when I will be dead, but you are probably right, it would not be as sensational a topic as what the media would find in posthumous salvation ordinances being practiced.

[_Chap]

... I could worry myself all day, everyday if I concerned myself with what a religion that has never been a part of my life was doing, whether in the name of my dead ancestry or not. The question really is whether those complaining Jewish people)are being hypersensitive and obsessing over something that they think has no effect in the first place...

I have already pointed out why Jews feel that Mormon posthumous baptism of their dead relations is a reproach to the living as well as the dead. I am happy for others to read what I have posted without repeating the arguments for that point, even if you apparently do not wish to acknowledge what I have said.

Jews can (and no doubt will) make up their own mind if they care whether you wish to characterize their reaction as "being hypersensitive and obsessing" or not.

[_sock puppet]

... I could worry myself all day, everyday if I concerned myself with what a religion that has never been a part of my life was doing, whether in the name of my dead ancestry or not. The question really is whether those complaining Jewish people)are being hypersensitive and obsessing over something that they think has no effect in the first place...

I have already pointed out why Jews feel that Mormon posthumous baptism of their dead relations is a reproach to the living as well as the dead. I am happy for others to read what I have posted without repeating the arguments for that point, even if you apparently do not wish to acknowledge what I have said.

Jews can (and no doubt will) make up their own mind if they care whether you wish to characterize their reaction as "being hypersensitive and obsessing" or not.

I take it you are referring to this comment:

I don't agree at all. One major complaint takes the form of

"Leave our families out of your church. We don't need you to imply that our grandfather - and by extension those of us who live like him today - lived an incomplete life religiously speaking, and that he or we need your help to get right with God. When our families need your help, we'll ask you."

That seems to me completely legitimate.

My point is that there is no uninvited 'help' of which to complain unless the one holding that view concedes that there is after-life legitimacy to the practice. If the Jewish people think is not legitimate, then so what? The implication that Jews lead an incomplete life religiously speaking is nothing to be offended by compared to the express proclamations to that effect by Mormon leaders claiming that only Mormonism can validly provide people with the saving ordinances. Yet some Jewish people take offense from time to time about the posthumous ordinances, and barely a mention of the clear, express proclamations. The reasons you articulate pertain just as much to one as the other, yet one is much more offensive in how direct and express it is, and yet goes untouched by their complaints.

So I think there must be some other aspect of why the rub.