Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
Droopy,
Quit while you're behind.
Quit while you're behind.
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
Droopy wrote:There is no text in the Book of Mormon that mentions any other lineage descending from Lehi, save the descendents of Laman and Lemual, as being given a darker skin as a symbol of their rebellion against God. The "curse" you mention here is the curse of cultural and spiritual separation from God. Nowhere in the Book of Mormon is dark skin itself ever a curse, in and of itself, beyond its signification as an outward sign or symbol of the inward state of the one cursed.
No, skin color is never a curse:
And again: I will set a mark upon him that mingleth his seed with thy brethren, that they may be cursed also.
Nor is skin color a sole determinant of any such cursing. It is only a marker, and, as when the Lamanites were much more righteous than the Nephites (as in the Book of Helaman), its symbolic meaning becomes a cultural memory and memorial of spiritual significance, but no longer a symbol of one's present state. Speaking of reading the scriptures, you might want to give that a shot instead of just quote mining for debating points:
What do you mean "sole determinant"? It's a marker. Dark skin marks one as cursed. Do you know how to read?
And the Amlicites [i]were distinguished from the Nephites, for they had marked themselves with red in their foreheads after the manner of the Lamanites; nevertheless they had not shorn their heads like unto the Lamanites.
So, even the Amlicites were not cursed like the Lamanites. How does this show that dark skin wasn't the mark of the curse? The scripture you cite is pretty clear: the Amlicites had not "mingled with the seed" of the Lamanites, so their skin was still white. That they didn't turn dark means there is something inherently "different" about the Lamanites and their curse. If you're going to play stupid semantic games, at least use those that might support your position.
First point: Anyone can become a "Lamanite" (or a redneck, or a "gangsta," or "hip-hop," or "goth," etc.) by marking themselves - adopting the culture and cultural artifacts, of "Lamanites."
Has nothing to do with the mark of the curse being dark skin. Amlicites may have been wicked, but they weren't cursed.
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
Ya, I already cited that: the mark was put on them because of their wickedness. That it wasn't put on the Amlicites means the Amlicites weren't cursed with dark skin. Your argument is irrelevant.
And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
No one else but these family lines received the mark, including the Nephites in their later wickedness, for which no supporting text exists in the Book of Mormon.[/quote]
The scriptures are clear that those who intermarry with the Lamanites get dark skin. When there were no "Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one," there would be no reason not to intermarry, unless you're saying that the division along color lines was preserved, "for which no supporting text exists in the Book of Mormon.
And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.
Its all about culture, and culture transmits, maintains, and preserves traditions, correct or incorrect, righteous, indifferent, or degenerate and wicked.
Exactly: dark skin = inferior, degenerate, wicked culture. I heard you were a fairly smart guy. Guess not.
And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.
This could mean either intermarriage (genetic transmission of the marker) as well as absorption of Lamanite culture. I suspect it probably implies both.
The result is still the same: dark skin. "And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."
Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him.
This mark, according to the above and other scriptures, could be either acquisition of the symbolic outward mark through intermingling of genes, or through new adherents to Lamanite culture and society marking themselves as members of that cultural group.
Again, totally irrelevant.
This cannot conceivably be termed "racism" in any coherent sense save by the most multiculturalism-addled modern mind. This is separation based upon culture and spiritual state - behavior, norms, mores, attitudes, and values, not race. There is no claim here of underlying, innate, and inherent inferiority. None.
God, you're stupid. The Amlicites didn't have their skin turned dark because they hadn't intermarried and had children with the Lamanites. Whether they put a red mark on their heads is irrelevant. If a dark skin means someone is a member of a cursed race, that is inherently racist. Intellectually serious and honest people will acknowledge that, according to the Book of Mormon, God created a darker race to prevent admixture of peoples, which is racist. You, on the other hand, are all about obfuscation and feeble attempts at semantic games. You're in way over your head, Cletus.
All of this, by the way, has deep modern application, none of which have anything to do with race, or physical appearance at all, in any genetic or biological sense.
In other words, people who don't think like Droopy are cursed.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
Droopy wrote:
David Horowitz made precisely this point about contemporary Amercan blacks many years ago, and he is, without question, correct.
First Thomas Sowell, now David Horowitz. I don't think I will be convinced until you quote from Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
Droopy wrote:David Horowitz made precisely this point about contemporary Amercan blacks many years ago, and he is, without question, correct. Indeed, the same argument could be made for the descendents of coutless Europeans who came here as indentured servents, as for anybody else.
So, American culture is superior. At least we know where you're coming from.
Contemporary Africa is, for the most part, under generations of black rule, a nightmare hellhole, and has been for a very, very long time (indeed, it has been termed "the nightmare continent") Who would want to live there at all, regardless of skin color (and what possible connection do modern American blacks, who's family lines have been here for centuries, have with Africa?)?
Why is that, Loran? Is it cultural inferiority?
Another bald faced agenda-driven lie for the cause. You guys are really racking them up today. Its also nice to find out from the wizards of smart here that Thomas Sowell is, not only a racist, but apparently a Southern fundamentalist redneck.
You can be black and be a racist. Are you this stupid in person?
Here's what Sowell said, and my description is accurate:
The redneck culture proved to be a major handicap for both whites and blacks who absorbed it. Today, the last remnants of that culture can still be found in the worst of the black ghettos, whether in the North or the South, for the ghettos of the North were settled by blacks from the South. The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct.
Black culture is the "handicap" that creates the "worst of the black ghettos." Nothing racist about that. You have plumbed new depths of stupidity today, and that's saying something for you.
Just fascinating.
I wish you were fascinating, but stupidity and racism just aren't very interesting.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
Samantabhadra wrote:Droopy,
Quit while you're behind.
Sound Advice, but advice I doubt this fellow will take. It is sad to see a being so Enmired in Rigidity that he mistakes his Own Visage in the mirror for Hated Others.
Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to was never there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it...
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
I believe early Mormonism availed itself of typical Christian and Muslim thought on the matter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain
Joseph Fielding Smith said in his book, "The Seed of Cain.":
Within Mormonism the "curse" or "mark of Cain" is dark skin, and it's clearly associated with racism. There's no doubt about it.
- VRDRC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain
From Brigham Young: Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth; we will summons the First Presidency, the Twelve, the High Council, the Bishopric, and all the Elders of Israel, suppose we summons them and appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day and hour we should do so, the Priesthood is taken from this Church and Kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go to destruction--we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed. (Speech by Gov. Brigham Young in Joint Session of the Legislature, giving his views on slavery, Feb. 5, 1852).
Joseph Fielding Smith said in his book, "The Seed of Cain.":
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (p. 101).
"Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the
privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants
of Cain" (p. 101).
"Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of
mankind from the beginning" (p. 101).
"But what a contrast! The sons of Seth, Enoch and Noah honored by the blessings and rights of
Priesthood! And the sons of Cain, denied the Priesthood" (p. 102).
"In the spirit of sympathy, mercy and faith, we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to
our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren - children of God - notwithstanding their black covering
emblematical of eternal darkness" (p. 102).
"The curse placed on Cain was continued in his posterity and that through the seed of Ham this curse
was brought through the flood" (p. 103).
"Some of the brethren who were associated with the Prophet Joseph Smith declared that he taught
this doctrine" (p. 103).
"President Brigham Young, answering a question put to him by Elder Lorenzo D. Young in a meeting
held December 25, 1869, in Salt Lake City, said that Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes
were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but the posterity of Cain are black because
he (Cain) committed murder" (p. 105).
"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming
into the Kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received
their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his
posterity" (p. 106).
"He (Cain) sinned against the light ... moreover, he was cursed and his posterity after him because he
cut off Abel in his youth without posterity" (p. 106).
"It was well understood by the early elders of the Church that the mark which was placed on Cain
and which his posterity inherited was the black skin" (p. 107).
"The Book of Moses informs us that Cain and his descendants were black" (p. 107).
"President George A. Smith, speaking of the Negro race, in a discourse, September 23, 1855,
said: When Cain brought a curse upon his own head and that of his household, his after generations
bear the same curse. The curse that came upon Canaan, the son of Ham, was extended to a great
portion of the human race, and has continued to the present day" (p. 109).
"This doctrine did not originate with President Brigham Young but was taught by the Prophet
Joseph Smith" (p. 110).
"The Indians have greater cause to complain of the treatment of the whites, than the Negroes, or
sons of Cain - D.H.C., 4:501. But we all know it is due to his teachings that the Negro today is
barred from the Priesthood" (p. 111).
Apparently all this information slipped the mind of former President Gordon B. Hinckley before
and during his interview.
"The Negro may be baptized and enter the Church; and some of these unfortunate people have
been baptized and have proved their faithfulness and worthiness before the Lord, in this their
second estate" (p. 111).
Within Mormonism the "curse" or "mark of Cain" is dark skin, and it's clearly associated with racism. There's no doubt about it.
- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
tapirrider wrote:The problem is that Droopy's argument ignores the fact that labeling a culture to be inferior is racist.
Actually, it is not racist at all. It is a matter of opinion. And it was a standard opinion until the multiculturalism of the 90's.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith
We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith
We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Within Mormonism the "curse" or "mark of Cain" is dark skin, and it's clearly associated with racism. There's no doubt about it.
- VRDRC
Not true. God was racist. He favored the Jews over other races by calling them his chosen people. Also, how god protected the jews at the expense of others is quite amazing. Of course, you can bitch and moan to god if it will make you feel better.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith
We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith
We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
why me wrote:Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Within Mormonism the "curse" or "mark of Cain" is dark skin, and it's clearly associated with racism. There's no doubt about it.
- VRDRC
Not true. God was racist. He favored the Jews over other races by calling them his chosen people. Also, how god protected the jews at the expense of others is quite amazing. Of course, you can bitch and moan to god if it will make you feel better.
So, when He gave the commandment to 'love thy neighbour' He forgot to add 'as long as they're Jewish and not Black'?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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Re: Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race
why me wrote:Not true. God was racist. He favored the Jews over other races by calling them his chosen people. Also, how god protected the jews at the expense of others is quite amazing. Of course, you can bitch and moan to god if it will make you feel better.
I think people tend to conflate bigotry with racism. I'm not sure Jews are a race so much as they are an ethnicity. So, to be accurate, God is a bigot, and I've already addressed that issue by not believing in a bigot. ;)
- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.