Horses in America

[_DrW]

While Tobin is asking his trickster God where the "real" Cumorah is, maybe he can also get a revelation on where we might find some cumom and curelom fossils. If horses were not so plentiful (despite the Book of Mormon saying there were "many horses") we know that there were lots of cumoms and cureloms running around. So where is the evidence for these creatures?

In my best, most earnest devout Mormon voice:

"So, would you even know a cumom or curelom fossil if you saw one?"

"I thought as much."

"This is just one of those things that will be revealed in the next life."

Problem solved.

[_Equality]

While Tobin is asking his trickster God where the "real" Cumorah is, maybe he can also get a revelation on where we might find some cumom and curelom fossils. If horses were not so plentiful (despite the Book of Mormon saying there were "many horses") we know that there were lots of cumoms and cureloms running around. So where is the evidence for these creatures?

So, would you even know a cumom or curelom fossil if you saw one?

I thought as much.

Problem solved.

The whole "cumom" and "curelom" thing has always been a sticking point for me. Even as a tue believer ("true blue through and through") I never could make sense of it. If they were animals with an English equivalent (like "mammoth" as Orson Pratt suggested), why not just give the English translation? If an extinct or exotic animal without an English equivalent, why not describe what the damn animal looked like? The whole thing is so clearly an amateurish attempt by Joseph Smith to add credibility to the deception he was perpetrating. There is just no reason for "cumoms" and cureloms" to be in the English translation of the Book of Mormon.

[_DrW]

The whole "cumom" and "curelom" thing has always been a sticking point for me. Even as a tue believer ("true blue through and through") I never could make sense of it. If they were animals with an English equivalent (like "mammoth" as Orson Pratt suggested), why not just give the English translation? If an extinct or exotic animal without an English equivalent, why not describe what the damn animal looked like? The whole thing is so clearly an amateurish attempt by Joseph Smith to add credibility to the deception he was perpetrating. There is just no reason for "cumoms" and cureloms" to be in the English translation of the Book of Mormon.

Agree 100%. I think this is the same for most LDS.

Cumoms and cureloms has to be one of those items that is found on pretty much everybody's "shelf or blind faith". You know, the one that eventually has so much accumulated weight that it breaks.

[_beastie]

The arguments that believers continue to make for the possible existence of the horse is just evidence of how delusional religious belief can make one.

In addition to the other evidence cited by posters and explained AT LENGTH on my website, there is the fact that Mesoamerican animals figured heavily into their religious symbolism and artwork. The horse, whether used for transportation or reserved in small quantities for elites, would have been pictured therein. It's not.

It's time to put on your big-boy-pants and face facts.

[_beastie]

One big problem, beastie, are the distracting backgrounds. Can you turn them off completely? That would help a great deal until something better can be put in its place.

Would you be interested in help with redesigning and possibly hosting the site? I'm not making the offer myself, but I can ask around.

It's been so long since I did anything with it other than pay for it to be hosted I'm not sure I even know how to turn off the backgrounds anymore at this point. Every time I even consider doing something simple like that I remember how overwhelming and confusing it was in the first place and just procrastinate it again. So whether or not I'd take help depends on how involved I have to be. That sounds terrible and ungrateful, but I cannot exaggerate how much I hate messing with it.

[_Tobin]

The arguments that believers continue to make for the possible existence of the horse is just evidence of how delusional religious belief can make one.

In addition to the other evidence cited by posters and explained AT LENGTH on my website, there is the fact that Mesoamerican animals figured heavily into their religious symbolism and artwork. The horse, whether used for transportation or reserved in small quantities for elites, would have been pictured therein. It's not.

It's time to put on your big-boy-pants and face facts.

beastie,

I don't think anyone is denying there is no evidence for pre-Columbian horses in America yet. However, you are making a number of assumptions in your views that may not be necessarily applicable to the Book of Mormon. I think I and KevinSim have identified what those are. I doubt the Mormon critics are willing to put on their "big-boy-pants" and admit that the Book of Mormon can be viewed as highly localized and having little to do with the larger Mesoamerican civilizations. Also, as has already been pointed out, it literally takes finding one horse bone in America pre-dating the arrival of Columbus and this whole house of cards comes tumbling down. I, as a Mormon, believe that is inevitable. You are welcome to believe otherwise.

[_beastie]

beastie,

I don't think anyone is denying there is no evidence for pre-Columbian horses in America yet. However, you are making a number of assumptions in your views that may not be necessarily applicable to the Book of Mormon. I think I and KevinSim have identified what those are. I doubt the Mormon critics are willing to put on their "big-boy-pants" and admit that the Book of Mormon can be viewed as highly localized and having little to do with the larger Mesoamerican civilizations. Also, as has already been pointed out, it literally takes finding one horse bone in America pre-dating the arrival of Columbus and this whole house of cards comes tumbling down. I, as a Mormon, believe that is inevitable. You are welcome to believe otherwise.

How long can you believers pretend that the scientists who have spent their entire lives studying this region are simply too incompetent to recognize the existence of the horse in Mesoamerica during the Book of Mormon time period?

No need to answer, I already know the answer. As long as you need to keep believing in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, that's how long.

This is why I eventually lost interest in this topic. It's the definition of insanity - having the same argument over and over with the same inevitable end. Hey, there are some websites with fraudulent and/or misinformed evidences for the horse you can use next. I suggest Chapman first. He's the absolute best. The best, I tell you. You just have to overlook the fact that he uses known hoaxes and frauds as evidence, but that shouldn't be difficult.

[_DrW]

One big problem, beastie, are the distracting backgrounds. Can you turn them off completely? That would help a great deal until something better can be put in its place.

Would you be interested in help with redesigning and possibly hosting the site? I'm not making the offer myself, but I can ask around.

It's been so long since I did anything with it other than pay for it to be hosted I'm not sure I even know how to turn off the backgrounds anymore at this point. Every time I even consider doing something simple like that I remember how overwhelming and confusing it was in the first place and just procrastinate it again. So whether or not I'd take help depends on how involved I have to be. That sounds terrible and ungrateful, but I cannot exaggerate how much I hate messing with it.

Beastie,

There is a lot of good information on your site. Looks as if it took a great deal of effort to organize and publish. Hope it can stay available on the internet. I would be willing to take the information you have and build (or have built) a simple website using one of our templates or Dreamweaver. You could be as involved or not involved as you wish. Quickest approach would be a word for word, image for image transfer to the new site (without the background). It would probably be better, however, to break the work down into sections make them accessible from a drop down or side bar menu.

We could arrange to have it hosted. The URL could remain the same. We would give you a password so you could access the site to make make changes if you wish.

It would take some time, but again, you have done a lot of work and it should stay available for folks who are interested. If you are interested, please PM me.

(Just think about it, there are millions of folks there are out there like Tobin who could benefit greatly if they took the time to read and understand what you have written.)

[_beastie]

Beastie,

There is a lot of good information on your site. Looks as if it took a great deal of effort to organize and publish. Hope it can stay available on the internet. I would be willing to take the information you have and build (or have built) a simple website using one of our templates or Dreamweaver. You could be as involved or not involved as you wish. Quickest approach would be a word for word, image for image transfer to the new site (without the background). It would probably be better, however, to break the work down into sections make them accessible from a drop down or side bar menu.

We could arrange to have it hosted. The URL could remain the same. We would give you a password so you could access the site to make make changes if you wish.

It would take some time, but again, you have done a lot of work and it should stay available for folks who are interested. If you are interested, please PM me.

(Just think about it, there are millions of folks there are out there like Tobin who could benefit greatly if they took the time to read and understand what you have written.)

Thanks, DrW. PM on the way.

[_Tobin]

beastie,

I don't think anyone is denying there is no evidence for pre-Columbian horses in America yet. However, you are making a number of assumptions in your views that may not be necessarily applicable to the Book of Mormon. I think I and KevinSim have identified what those are. I doubt the Mormon critics are willing to put on their "big-boy-pants" and admit that the Book of Mormon can be viewed as highly localized and having little to do with the larger Mesoamerican civilizations. Also, as has already been pointed out, it literally takes finding one horse bone in America pre-dating the arrival of Columbus and this whole house of cards comes tumbling down. I, as a Mormon, believe that is inevitable. You are welcome to believe otherwise.

How long can you believers pretend that the scientists who have spent their entire lives studying this region are simply too incompetent to recognize the existence of the horse in Mesoamerica during the Book of Mormon time period?

No need to answer, I already know the answer. As long as you need to keep believing in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, that's how long.

This is why I eventually lost interest in this topic. It's the definition of insanity - having the same argument over and over with the same inevitable end. Hey, there are some websites with fraudulent and/or misinformed evidences for the horse you can use next. I suggest Chapman first. He's the absolute best. The best, I tell you. You just have to overlook the fact that he uses known hoaxes and frauds as evidence, but that shouldn't be difficult.

Well, I think you are really overstating your case quite a bit there. Would you like to provide the names of any reputable scientists that have spent their careers looking for pre-contact horse remains?!? I find that very unlilkely. It is simply assumed there are no remains and I can't imagine there have been any serious efforts to find them (if so, again I'd like to cite who did it, what institution did the search, where they looked and so on). The reality of the situation is people assume that horses didn't exist pre-contact. If by accident some remains are found and tested, then that is the only real chance a breakthough in the Book of Mormon's favor will occur.

And I think you mistake both my understanding of the material you posted (which I've already noted is very good) and my intent here. I'm interested in the truth and there is no provable case to be made that there were pre-contact horses present in the Americas yet. Again, I have simply pointed out why I believe that it remains a possibility that there were horses here despite the substantial material you have put together. Ultimately, it would take finding horse remains to change the picture substantially. Though I doubt even when that happens that Mormon critics will embrace the Book of Mormon.

As for my belief in the Book of Mormon, it is based on experience. I have had an experience that leads me to believe that it is true, despite the lack of evidence. And really, that is the only basis upon which to believe the Book of Mormon. Otherwise, I don't think one should believe it. After all, the claims are extraordinary (visitations from God, Angels, and Gold Books) and the lack of evidence that there were horses here is minor in comparison to those claims.