Turn it off

[_Jutta]

@ ldsfaqs,

You criticize that the faith of the LDS is not concurring with the Bible. I agree with you. Who only tells you that the Bible is the word God? Perhaps it is a book of fairytales just the same as the Book of Mormon?

[_Jutta]

Exodus 24:9-11KJV

9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

It would seem the Bible does not agree with Albion. He should find another book more to his liking.

Something has different meanings in the Bible for "see something". So I can see a little what is in front of me. I can do this with my "natural" eyes. I then can "see" something with my spiritual eyes. The first witnesses of the Book of Mormon did not see the golden plates with their natural but with their spiritual eyes as Harris and Whitmer often confirmed.

[_Tobin]

Something has different meanings in the Bible for "see something". So I can see a little what is in front of me. I can do this with my "natural" eyes. I then can "see" something with my spiritual eyes. The first witnesses of the Book of Mormon did not see the golden plates with their natural but with their spiritual eyes as Harris and Whitmer often confirmed.

Uh huh. That must be why the translators used the past tense of the verb "to see", because obviously that isn't what the writer's meant to communicate there. I find such arguments rather weak, especially in light of my own experience. I defintely saw and experienced something, so I find such interpretations distorted and only an attempt to explain away what is clearly stated.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, I think there is no dispute between us on the issue you outline. I have absolutely no problem with the idea of viewing God as "real and very approachable and that is how once comes to a knowledge of God through having experiences with God." I am not sure where you get the idea that Christians do not believe this way. I do not believe "God is unseeable and unknowable."....only in the way you use the word "see". As Romans clearly states God can be seen through the things he has made "so that man is without excuse". Christians speak with God...Christians see God everywhere in all creation. And yet, because mankind is in sin he cannot gaze upon God as he is in all his holy glory because that glory would destroy him. I understand, too, that for a Mormon to accept this would flat out destroy the claim of Joseph Smith, This is one of the reasons why Christians reject those claims. The full and complete revelation of God is in his Son and he who has seen the son has seen the father. I believe that scripture, taken as a whole, clearly teaches that man cannot gaze upon the person of God... God in all his glory and holiness, and live...which is why God presented himself to mankind in various other ways...as a burning bush to Moses, for instance. Please do not think me "stuck". I have complete and utter trust in where I am headed and by whose grace that is assured. Can you honestly say the same...have you done enough good works...have you kept all the commandments so that you don't slip backwards...do you sustain all your leaders....do you etc. and etc...I think you know the drill. Can you honestly say you have done enough and that you know where you are going if you were to die today? I do and have rejected where you are. There is power and their is unbounded hope when the sinner rests only in Christ as his hope rather than in works and his own strivings. That is his truth that makes us free. He is the light of the world and personal works and law keeping will never outshine it. Read John 9 and in particular Jesus healing the blind man. Those who are really "stuck" are those like the Pharisees who fail to see the light and so stuck in the law that they fail to see that God is about grace above the law.

Albion,

Of course you don't recognize you are stuck. If you did, you'd probably change. What we are trying to explain to you is how you are stuck and what you don't accept is the problem.

For example, in your statment above, you can't accept that Joseph Smith saw God because in your view men can't see God. However, in Acts it states:

Acts 1:3

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

For 40 days God showed himself to the saints and taught them. He obviously is just as capable today of showing himself to Joseph Smith, you or myself.

The reason I like examples like this is they clearly demonstrate that your distorted understanding of sciptures makes you incapable of accepting the truth. That truth being that God did appear to Joseph Smith, the same as he appeared to the prophets and apostles of old. And if you seek him, you too can see and speak with God.

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk, please don't take this the wrong way but there is no hidden meaning in scripture for those knocking at Christ's door. It is clear and simple for those seeking him and is adapted to the learned and the unlearned. The message you appear to offer is one of an eclectic nature like something out of the flower generation. The only real response I can give to your post is that whatever it is that you are preaching, I don't want it. You can interpret that anyway that you wish...that I am "blocked"...that I am closed...that I don't have your "spiritual discernment". Quite frankly if what you are telling me is the result of that "discernment" I am glad that I don't have it. I have made my spiritual choice in life and that is to follow my savior and allow him to live through me....that's what his word teaches, pure and simple...no hidden meanings...no hoops to jump through...no laws to keep. A simple life goal that will lead to sanctification, a full indwelling of the spirit. That is open to all mankind through faith and by God's infinite grace. The main things that causes anyone to lose the way is self pride and trust in false ideologies and and those who proclaim them.

You are like a man who has a guide book for the Grand Canyon. He studies the guide book but does not go to the canyon. And he has the nerve to tell those who have gone to the canyon that they could not have seen the things they talk about because those things are not in his book.

Please don't tell me that all of what God can be is contained in the pages of a book. I am happy you have found Jesus.

[_Albion]

Your way or no way, eh, Franktalk. There is nothing wrong with studying God's word, that's what it is there for. Sadly, though, you seem to diminish that word as if finding Jesus is somehow the second prize. Jesus is the whole prize...he is the Word and no man comes to the Father, or even gets to know the Father unless he goes through Christ Jesus, the living Word and the whole purpose of the book in the first place.

[_Franktalk]

Your way or no way, eh, Franktalk. There is nothing wrong with studying God's word, that's what it is there for. Sadly, though, you seem to diminish that word as if finding Jesus is somehow the second prize. Jesus is the whole prize...he is the Word and no man comes to the Father, or even gets to know the Father unless he goes through Christ Jesus, the living Word and the whole purpose of the book in the first place.

The purpose of the book is to start us on a path to God. A path that leads us to spirituality and a casting off of the attachments to this world. One of the attachments is a love of the book as God. The book leads to all truth it is not all truth. Just read the words, it tells you to seek all truth through the Holy Spirit. It tells you that the message from scripture comes from spiritual discernment. If most of what we are to learn comes from beyond scripture and worldly techniques then those who have obtained truth beyond scripture will know each other. For they will know truth when they hear it. To those who embrace the scriptures as all truth and use the world to interpret them they will stumble at the word and it will lead them to destruction. This message is also in scripture.

You think that I am saying these things to obtain some ego trip. I ask you if you think Christ was on an ego trip when He taught the people. Was Christ on an ego trip when He told people not to hide their gifts? Was Christ on an ego trip when He said the world hated Him before it hates us?

Scripture says that few will find the path. It also says the many will be led to destruction. Just where do you draw that line between the few and the many.

[_Albion]

No, Franktalk, the purpose of the Bible is to reveal God in Christ and to lead people to Him. All truth is contained within its pages because Jesus himself is all truth and there is no truth outside of him. Christ is the full and complete revelation of God and as he said, if you don't know him yhou don ;t kn ow the one who sent him.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." Ephesian 1: 3

Good luck in your search for the mysteries...God's only mystery is fulfilled in Christ and it is in him that we are mace complete.

[_Franktalk]

Good luck in your search for the mysteries...God's only mystery is fulfilled in Christ and it is in him that we are mace complete.

Good luck in your search as well.

[_jo1952]

No, Franktalk, the purpose of the Bible is to reveal God in Christ and to lead people to Him. All truth is contained within its pages because Jesus himself is all truth and there is no truth outside of him. Christ is the full and complete revelation of God and as he said, if you don't know him yhou don ;t kn ow the one who sent him.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." Ephesian 1: 3

Good luck in your search for the mysteries...God's only mystery is fulfilled in Christ and it is in him that we are mace complete.

And yet it is Jesus Christ who taught us that it would be the Holy Ghost who will lead us to All Truth, and that Jesus had not revealed to His Apostles "all" that He knew....but only what the Father wanted Him to reveal. In other words, Jesus only revealed those parts of All Truth which they were ready to receive. So, yes, we have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. However, to actually obtain all of those blessings, we must follow the example Christ gave us. Christ is the "Way" to be able to obtain all of those blessings; and the Holy Ghost will lead us.

This is reinforced in the teachings of the Apostles wherein they could only teach believers those things which each group was ready for. It is WHY there is a difference between milk and meat understanding. This is also reinforced in the letters to the seven churches in the Book of Revelation. Unless the members of those seven churches overcame, their names would be blotted out of the book of life. Obviously, if a member's name gets blotted out of the book of life, they do not obtain all of the spiritual blessings of heaven even though a member, in order to BE a member of the church, has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. Accepting Christ is the beginning of the journey. He is the Way who needs to be followed to reach toward the spiritual blessings of heaven. Christ is the guide; He does not take our steps for us. We do our own overcoming with His help; just as Father helped Him to overcome.

Revelation 3:21 (KJV)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Shalom,

jo