Ah, isn't the LDS church wonderful?

[_wenglund]

I've talked with my ex-husband about this and he told me how humiliating it was for him. I feel terrible about that, now.

I'm actually not bothered by it (not being able to do the baptism). I see it as a great 'exmo' missionary opportunity. The only thing I'm bothered about is how my family pities me.

It never bothered my EX that he couldn't bless the kids or perform other Priesthood duties since he never did the mission thing nor was he ever active. What bothered him was how the attention was drawn to him and the fact that he wasn't allowed in the 'circle'.

Picture this. We are all in the Cultural hall of an LDS Chapel. There were about 65 or so family members. Before we started to eat, we called all that wanted to be in the circle (worthy men) to come up. The Bishopric's representative from my ward, the 1st Counselor, then asked my husband to stand up there with him to the side of the worthy 'circle', facing all of the women that were sitting at the tables, while our baby was being blessed. Most of the men in that circle were distant relatives who I haven't seen since (almost 18 years).

I think back on the moment and I can't believe that I allowed that to happen. I truly believe the 1st counselor thought he was doing the right thing having him stand there because I had asked if he could hold our daughter in the middle of the circle as he had done for our oldest daughter.

So many strange rituals the Mormon Church has and I was completely oblivious to how strange they truly are. I went along because, well, you just went along with those kinds of things.

Now, I have a 13 year. old son that has not been ordained a Deacon yet. He probably never will be either even though his best friends are all very active. I almost just went along again a year and a half ago and had the deed done, but somehow couldn't, believing the way I do now. If he chooses to be ordained when he's 18.....he can.

If the goal is to prevent ostricizing or estrangement, then wouldn't it make sense to NOT think or speak of either party's beliefs/practices as "strange"? Wouldn't it make sense to NOT be selective in our empathy, but have a loving and understanding heart for all?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Moniker]

I am intensely discomfited (envy) at the ooey gooey displays of love on this forum by Tori and BishopRic.

Urgh.

Okay, major thread-jack here, but it is amazing how intensely passionate, and easy, a relationship can be for two exmos who know how TBM relationships are, and now have none of those man-made rules and restrictions to hinder the beauty of true intimacy....

Course, it could just be that Tori is gorgeous and HOT!

Uh, I need not read anymore about passion, or the beauty of intimacy. :(

Congrats to the two of you!

Going through a divorce. Ignore.

[_wenglund]

I am intensely discomfited (envy) at the ooey gooey displays of love on this forum by Tori and BishopRic.

Urgh.

Okay, major thread-jack here, but it is amazing how intensely passionate, and easy, a relationship can be for two exmos who know how TBM relationships are, and now have none of those man-made rules and restrictions to hinder the beauty of true intimacy....

Course, it could just be that Tori is gorgeous and HOT!

By way of inquiry and not judgement, now that Tori's daughter is coming into puberty, will you and/or Tori be advising her daughter to abandon "man-made rules and restrictions" so as not to hinder the beauty of true intimacy? Might you have already done so? (Advice need not be given verbally, but conveyed through example.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_BishopRic]

I am intensely discomfited (envy) at the ooey gooey displays of love on this forum by Tori and BishopRic.

Urgh.

Okay, major thread-jack here, but it is amazing how intensely passionate, and easy, a relationship can be for two exmos who know how TBM relationships are, and now have none of those man-made rules and restrictions to hinder the beauty of true intimacy....

Course, it could just be that Tori is gorgeous and HOT!

Uh, I need not read anymore about passion, or the beauty of intimacy. :(

Congrats to the two of you!

Thanks!

Going through a divorce. Ignore.

Sorry to hear....

Sometimes a divorce is the first step to a free and happy life? Best wishes!

[_LCD2YOU]

Uh, I need not read anymore about passion, or the beauty of intimacy. :(

Congrats to the two of you!

Going through a divorce. Ignore.

Been there, done that. After 15 years of marriage and 6 years of, er, courting.

But things do turn out well and sometimes even better.

Good luck to you. All my best.

[_Moniker]

never mind

snarky to wade

[_Moniker]

Thanks BishopRic and LDC2YOU. :)

Now, let's get back to talking about how much Who Knows extended family SUCKS!

[_BishopRic]

I've talked with my ex-husband about this and he told me how humiliating it was for him. I feel terrible about that, now.

I'm actually not bothered by it (not being able to do the baptism). I see it as a great 'exmo' missionary opportunity. The only thing I'm bothered about is how my family pities me.

It never bothered my EX that he couldn't bless the kids or perform other Priesthood duties since he never did the mission thing nor was he ever active. What bothered him was how the attention was drawn to him and the fact that he wasn't allowed in the 'circle'.

Picture this. We are all in the Cultural hall of an LDS Chapel. There were about 65 or so family members. Before we started to eat, we called all that wanted to be in the circle (worthy men) to come up. The Bishopric's representative from my ward, the 1st Counselor, then asked my husband to stand up there with him to the side of the worthy 'circle', facing all of the women that were sitting at the tables, while our baby was being blessed. Most of the men in that circle were distant relatives who I haven't seen since (almost 18 years).

I think back on the moment and I can't believe that I allowed that to happen. I truly believe the 1st counselor thought he was doing the right thing having him stand there because I had asked if he could hold our daughter in the middle of the circle as he had done for our oldest daughter.

So many strange rituals the Mormon Church has and I was completely oblivious to how strange they truly are. I went along because, well, you just went along with those kinds of things.

Now, I have a 13 year. old son that has not been ordained a Deacon yet. He probably never will be either even though his best friends are all very active. I almost just went along again a year and a half ago and had the deed done, but somehow couldn't, believing the way I do now. If he chooses to be ordained when he's 18.....he can.

If the goal is to prevent ostricizing or estrangement, then wouldn't it make sense to NOT think or speak of either party's beliefs/practices as "strange"? Wouldn't it make sense to NOT be selective in our empathy, but have a loving and understanding heart for all?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I can't answer for Tori, but I think it is through pointing out the ostracizing and belittling practices of the church that they are recognized and steps made to improve them. As Tori said, at the time she didn't say anything about it. I guarantee that today she would. That is because there are enough of us today that don't allow that kind of abuse to take place in our lives.

Of course the LDS church (and any other organization for that matter) can exclude whomever they choose. But it is appropriate to alert the non-members/inactives in advance before making fools of them in front of family and friends. This process only serves to project a poor, arrogant, hypocritical image of the church before people who are taught that it is a "family-oriented" church.

[_LCD2YOU]

Thanks BishopRic and LDC2YOU. :)

Now, let's get back to talking about how much Who Knows extended family SUCKS!

No problem.

As for families that give someone the evil eye, go to a nice big Italian family sometime after they find out you let the REAL Church (Roman Catholic). It sucks no matter what religion you are.

[_BishopRic]

By way of inquiry and not judgement, now that Tori's daughter is coming into puberty, will you and/or Tori be advising her daughter to abandon "man-made rules and restrictions" so as not to hinder the beauty of true intimacy? Might you have already done so? (Advice need not be given verbally, but conveyed through example.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I know your comments are not judgmental Wade, so I'll attempt the same. First, just for clarification, Tori's "son" is 13 now. He lives in the heart of Orem, and his best friend is the bishop's son. He (Tori's son) has been exposed to some real biases against inactives/nonmembers in his "ward area," so he is not overly active at this time. He does enjoy ward basketball, but that's about the only connection he has to the church today.

Neither Tori nor I speak negatively of the church to him. We also keep our romance outside his home.

Yes, I believe there are many man-made rules in the LDS church (and others, I'm sure) that serve to hinder a teenager's natural sexual maturity, and often create problems of intimacy in adult life. The guilt associated with sexual feelings, masturbation, etc., in my opinion is extremely damaging to healthy relationships. I know this paradigm is quite foreign to LDS members, but I personally feel that many European cultures instill a much healthier approach to sexuality and relationships -- and have fewer STDs and unwanted pregnancies. I'm not much of a fan of using guilt as a tool to hinder behaviors. I've seen too much depression, suicide, and drug addiction in LDS families where this approach is used, and I think there is a better way.

BUT, I am not his father, and don't feel the "calling" to teach him about this. I WILL set the example to love, adore, and respect his mother around him...and I think you ARE right that this is the best way to teach him anything.