What do LDS men think of non-virginal women?

[Guest]

Beastie, that is terrible that you felt second class. I'm so sorry. :(

I'm reading about the warrior right now.

Ren, I appreciate you tying in these sentiments into secular society and I agree there are double standards. But, I'd like if we could focus in on Church teachings and how women are viewed in the Church. In secular society women are not told they are "flawed" for having intercourse with a man she is in a relationship with outside of marriage. Women are not (usually) viewed as seducing a man and being responsible for his sexual urges, either. Women are not expected to be non-sexual. I think there are definite differences and I'd like to focus on those.

[_Ren]

Mon,

Yeah sure - no problem :)
I definitely think that in a religious setting, the problem can tend to be worse overall, and in very specific ways...

[_Moniker]

beastie's roundup of cultural attitudes conforms to what I observed growing up in Utah, that bastion of Zion--particularly the way that sense of "specialness" plays out in relation to nonmembers and converts alike.

The assumption I always found most repellent was that Mormons were somehow more "intelligent" than nonmembers: thus, if someone hadn't converted it was because they hadn't had the gospel dumbed down enough, or put in short enough words for them to understand yet. They needed in other words to be talked down to in language their minds could comprehend because of course anyone with a brain would believe in Mormonism! Sound familiar? I remember overhearing some ladies at church nattering on about this, about how hard it was to home teach inactives or reach out to nonmembers because essentially you had to "lower yourself" to their level to be able to communicate.

The idea that sethbag related--that converts having once been nonmembers were sexually suspect--was also common. Usuallly, of course, this was expressed in relation to a girl, not a boy, because of the sexual double standards alive and well in Mormon culture. There are no comparable, however "benign," cupcake lessons for the boys...

Huh. I had no idea that there was a superior intelligence mentality.

[_beastie]

Beastie, that is terrible that you felt second class. I'm so sorry. :(

I'm reading about the warrior right now.

I should have recommended Saturday's Warrior to you long ago!

by the way, I want to clarify. I never felt like a second class citizen in terms of being a convert. I knew they were wrong. But it was clear some of THEM thought I was second class.

[_Blixa]

Huh. I had no idea that there was a superior intelligence mentality.

I've seen it displayed here quite often.

[_Church Mouse]

On my mission, one particular elder put it succinctly "A me, no me gusta carne usada." "Me, I do not like used meat." This is a widespread attitude among young males within the church. That said, I was the child of a convert, and didn't share this sentiment. I didn't care if my prospective spouse had a child already if we were right for one another.

Once the men age, this of course becomes a non-issue. If you are a thirty-something widower, if your focus is on finding a virgin you are fishing in a very shallow pond, and you're likely to be a fifty-something widower before you know it...

[_Jason Bourne]

I totally agree with Jason.

My exmo boyfriend and I have discussed this in the past. I am very curious about the effect of LDS teachings on children, since I didn't grow up LDS. His view was that remaining sexually chaste in all ways, which included trying his best to abstain from masturbation (which you can imagine is very difficult for a teenage boy), was really difficult, but that since he did it, he deserved someone else who had maintained that chastity, too.

Often when one waits and the other did not potential conflict and emotional stress can arise. You see, one does not usually ask someone if they are a virgin as they fall in love. But as things get more serious then the issue comes up. So maybe one is virgin and one is not. The one who is not is really in love. They believe in repentance and figure they can over look this. So they continue and they get married and well sometimes it can cause strain and resnentment.

When I have had a chance to counsel persons how may have not stayed chaste, as they repent I would tell them that they should really not give details fo their prior encounters to a future spouse. I think it fair to disclose that they are not a virgin but they have changed heir lifestyle, repented and that is it. No details of where, when , who, how many, how ofter and so on.

I'm sure LDS men like ren do exist, but I frankly believe they are the minority.

Some I am sure are like him.

I also agree that LDS women want a virgin husband, too - but suspect that there may be a hair more flexibility on this issue simply due to the overall double standard seen in larger society as well.

Yes I agree with both. Women though do seem less uptight about this being in their man's past. by the way, I see this even in non LDS. I have seem stress over previous sexual partners in the marriages of some of my in laws.

I don't totally agree that chastity is the sole responsibility of the female, but I do think that most LDS do think that since men have far stronger sex drives, they are more apt to go out of bounds, and a "good girl" will reign that in. It's my impression - not my experience, since I didn't grow up LDS - that the anti-masturbation teaching is stressed more to the young men than to the young women, since the assumption is that it's the young men who will be tempted. In a way, it almost strikes me that LDS view females as potentially sexless in general. If LDS girls lose their virginity, they "gave in" to a persistent boy, and that's why she failed to "reign him in", so to speak. The idea of a female with a strong sex drive and potentially the aggressor is, practically speaking, unheard of

Chastity is the responsibility of both male and female. Yes the stress has been placed on girls more then boys but not totally and less so today. I do recall being told over and over that no honorable LDS boy and Aaronic priesthood holder would be improper with someone else's daughter and future spouse.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think this is potentially more common. It is more likely to be overlooked if the female was not a member of the church when she was "deflowered", because she didn't know better.

Yeah. Maybe it's harder (in a statistical sense) if the person was raised Mormon and yet still 'fell'?
But I'm sure I personally wouldn't have made a distinction there. I'd get that some people are raised Mormon, but don't really 'believe' it or live it. I still wouldn't hold their 'past' against then in that sense...

Having said that, there is some bias in some LDS against marrying converts in general, something I wasn't aware of when I joined the church. I learned about it later.

Hmmm - that's interesting. It's been a while - it's kinda hard to think back now and try and remember if there were specific examples of this in people around me...

My wife is a convert. I recall when I was courting her. I took her to a missionary reunion event. One woman who had been a sister missionary that I had been good friends with while serving took me aside and told me that I should be "very careful" in my relationship with this convert girl. I though it was kind of a nasty thing to say at the time.

[_Moniker]

On my mission, one particular elder put it succinctly "A me, no me gusta carne usada." "Me, I do not like used meat." This is a widespread attitude among young males within the church. That said, I was the child of a convert, and didn't share this sentiment. I didn't care if my prospective spouse had a child already if we were right for one another.

Once the men age, this of course becomes a non-issue. If you are a thirty-something widower, if your focus is on finding a virgin you are fishing in a very shallow pond, and you're likely to be a fifty-something widower before you know it...

Yes, I've seen women referred to as spoiled meat a few times. Or "used".

Beastie, glad you didn't feel that way! You are first class in my book!

Blixa... yah, I've seen that on the boards as well. Yet, I just thought it was the individuals, didn't realize it might be a widespread phenomenon. I find it rather boorish.

[_Ren]

My wife is a convert. I recall when I was courting her. I took her to a missionary reunion event. One woman who had been a sister missionary that I had been good friends with while serving took me aside and told me that I should be "very careful" in my relationship with this convert girl. I though it was kind of a nasty thing to say at the time.

Wow!

I don't honestly have any stories like these. I don't think. I mean, I wasn't in YW of course :D, but I'd never head of this cupcake thing until reading it here on the forums.
But I don't know if that's because:

a. Just wasn't in the position to get comments like that. Both of the girls I 'kind of' went out with back then were non-convert girls. (It had nothing to do with my choice - they just happened to be that...)

b. I just happen to have been around more 'liberal' Mormons - generally...

OR

c. If it ever did happen, I would have attributed it to the person, and thought less of them specifically, rather than reading more into it (Justifiably or not).