Ahhh crap...now my son doesn't want to go to Church!

[_asbestosman]

We don't usually force our children to do things that we disagree with.

I was not clear, but I had in mind the the case of children who don't want to attend church even when parents wish them to attend. Of course if we don't agree with something we shouldn't force our kids into it. I can't imagine anyone who would either. If you don't agree with the church then it's foolish to force your kid to attend it.

We force our kids to do certain things when they derive value from it.

Cinepro appears to believe that his children will derive value from church attendance.

[_Moniker]

We don't usually force our children to do things that we disagree with.

I was not clear, but I had in mind the the case of children who don't want to attend church even when parents wish them to attend. Of course if we don't agree with something we shouldn't force our kids into it. I can't imagine anyone who would either. If you don't agree with the church then it's foolish to force your kid to attend it.

We force our kids to do certain things when they derive value from it.

Cinepro appears to believe that his children will derive value from church attendance.

I think, from the very start, I said it should be left up to the parents.... :)

[_beastie]

Well, obviously if both cinepro and wife want him to attend church, they are going to have to work on his attitude. I trust cinepro will find a way to do so while respecting his son's individuality and bright mind, and not minimizing his son's legitimate concerns.

[_asbestosman]

I think, from the very start, I said it should be left up to the parents.... :)

Indeed, which is why that particular post of mine which you quoted earlier was resonding to WhyMe who was responding to me who was responding to Sethbag who was talking about why he (Sethbag) feels it's wrong to force our religious beliefs on our kids.

Clear as muddied waters? :)

(I tend to continue discussing other things even when someone else offers an opinion I agree with--like that it should be up to the parents).

[_Moniker]

[_quaker]

Does he have a good primary teacher? If he's got a teacher that demands specific answers, who doesn't know how to teach good principles (principles that are good inside the Church as well as outside), and who forces the sort of whacky Bible stories on kids without teaching them a useful principle, then I can only imagine it would be boring.

This is where I was at 11 years old:
Making the most ridiculous comments I could think of to make fun of whatever we were learning. I didn't care about or want to learn anything. I tried to stay home as much as possible. I did a fair bit of thinking/reasoning about existence and God. My biggest goals at Church were to beat all the other kids at memorizing scriptures in order to get some type of prize and to bring peanut butter and jam to put on my sacrament bread. On top of that I constantly worried my parents with talk of suicide, becoming a hermit, etc.

Now I don't care for any dogma or beliefs about scientifically veried stuff. I go to Church for the spiritual aspect, and I love it. I've never testified that I know that the history and the stories in the scriptures are all true facts or anything like that. I really don't care, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to disprove/prove it, as I prioritize the spiritual actuality over historical accuracy.

Anyways, 11 year olds should be able to make their own decisions, within their realm of responsibilities and priveleges. He obviously can't stay home. If he's completely adament you can let him stay in the foyer with a book or some type of work/activity. I'd bring him with me to class if he absolutely didn't want to stay in primary.

But don't assume that what he says now won't change. At least give him a fighting chance of seeing something beyond primary scripture story time, because primary is a big bag of dog feces at his age.

[_Sethbag]

Are you trying to make a point? I'm not getting it.... :)

I don't know that it was much of a point. I was just saying that I'm not sure that Sethbag would agree with you that it should be up to parents to decide how to indoctrinate children. I'd like to hear his remarks.

Sorry, I was away from the keyboard most of the day. I recognize that parents commonly, some might even say almost universally, take advantage of their positions to indoctrinate their kids into believing certain things. To some extent this is inevitable, and it's obviously a parental role to teach their kids the things they'll need to know to survive and prosper in life. I recognize that religious believers will usually include in such necessities the necessity of believing exactly how they believe about the God that they imagine to exist. I disagree with this, but as nobody died and made me king, there's not much I can do about it.

But I do think Dawkins has it spot on about how retarded it is that kids are basically molded into Catholics, or Jews, or Mormons, or whatever from the day they're born, without much if any input of their own in the process, by their parents. It's like in that "Root of All Evil?" video with that jewish rabbi in London, when he claims that the kids in their little community are free to believe in Evolution if they want. Dawkins asks how many actually do, and the guy has to admit that it's not very many. Well of course not. These kids have grown up being told that evolution is wrong and conflicts with the truth about God, and low and behold, they don't believe in it when they're older. Their minds have been successfully molded and fashioned into little orthodox jews. Just like many kids born to TBMs are molded into little TBMs by their parents, and remain such for the rest of their lives. And little muslims, etc.

I would like to hear your remarks about Dawkins (or at least Sethbag) on the dangers of indoctrinating children just because we can. I'm not looking for a fight or even a big debate. I just want to give you guys a bit of a chance to clarify or something.

Part of the danger of parental indoctrination is that there's very little check and balance on what the parents can get a child to believe. Just watch "Jesus Camp" on YouTube and see all those kids start babbling in tongues and whatnot after just a short while being told this is what they believe, and should do, etc. If the parents are completely wrong about things they're teaching their kids, then there's a good chance that the kids are going to suffer the burden of this false belief baggage for the rest of their life.

Just take the orthodox Mormon viewpoint for a sec. According to this viewpoint, the Mormon church is the only true church on Earth, and every other church on the planet is false. Now imagine that there are billions of parents out there indoctrinating their children into false belief systems (I think the Mormons are right there with everyone else, but for the sake of argument, feel free to believe the Mormons are the exception to this rule). What if these false belief systems are actually harmful in some way. Don't you think it's unfortunate that the kid suffered this harm with no chance to avoid it, because they were at the mercy of their folks for the first 18 years of their life? I do.

[_Sethbag]

My point exactly. Seth does not like the church and so, daughter has a choice but wife says no. But seth probably likes education and if daughter wants to opt out at 16, I am sure that he will be the enforcer. But I could be wrong. As I said, at 11 I stopped attending mass not because I believed in no god, but because I did not want to wear fancy clothes and get up at 7 in the morning.

Ok, let's talk about this. You stopped attending mass at 11 for "the wrong reasons". Ok. Now, what would prevent you starting to go to mass again when you got older and (for the sake of argument) a little wiser? Could it be that when you were older you'd be less inclined to go, because you had never been indoctrinated into it when you were young and malleable? If you admit that this is a real danger, then thank you for making my point.

My mother-in-law tried to dodge that bullet, and failed. One of the purposes of seminary is to hook them when they're young. If this kind of exposure were put off till adulthood, many would argue that it would be "too late", and I would say, too late for what? It's never too late for a person to make up their own mind and do something because they choose it. But it does become too late to indoctrinate a person when they're young and credulous and malleable. It's too late when they're all grown up and thinking for themselves to convince them that they have to believe such and such, because the parents said so.

[_Sethbag]

Well, obviously if both cinepro and wife want him to attend church, they are going to have to work on his attitude. I trust cinepro will find a way to do so while respecting his son's individuality and bright mind, and not minimizing his son's legitimate concerns.

I think this will be very difficult, unless Cinepro can get his son to believe it all. Without belief, going to church and behaving and being polite and whatnot takes IMHO more patience than your average 10 year old can muster.

The real question is this. Does Cinepro just want the kid to go to church and sit there and keep his mouth shut, his hands folded, and his opinions and thoughts to himself? Because, in the absence of belief, I just don't see the son getting the kind of value of it that Cinepro is hoping he'll get. In reality, the only way the kid is going to really appreciate the experience the way Cinepro did is to believe it all hook, line, and sinker.

Cinepro, the church teaches the Book of Mormon as literally true, historical document, describing real people who actually existed, and real events that actually took place. That's what your son is being taught at church. If you don't actually believe this, then you are putting your son in the position of being indoctrinated with "knowledge" that you know is not really true. Same goes with Joseph Smith and the hero worship, his poop don't stink glorification of him that commonly happens in church. Joseph was, to most TBMs, the best thing that ever happened after sliced bread. That's what your son is being taught in church. If you know better, then why are you putting your son in the position of being indoctrinated with what you know to be false information?

Why are you putting your son in the position of actually growing up truly believing, as a TBM things that you no longer believe yourself? How can you see this as a positive thing, just because you've found a way to enjoy going to church? We're talking about your son's mind here. Do you really want to see it filled with things you yourself no longer believe? How is that helpful to your son? Because you enjoy going to church?

[_antishock8]

Ultimately, I just don't want to stay home from Church yet. I would be more bored at home. We have our adventures hiking and stuff on Saturdays (and even though I really don't "believe" in the idea of God caring me sitting around on Sunday afternoons, I've learned to enjoy taking it easy for one day a week.) So for now, I'm still going to Church. We can't leave him home alone for 3 hours every week; we live too far from the chapel and he's had a few instances of bad independent judgment that make that impossible.

Ooooooo... Ok. This is about you. I was under the impression this was about your son. Well, by all means, keep going to the Mormon church and dragging your son along because you don't want to be bored.

C'mon, now. You don't buy what the Mormon church is sellin', your son hates it there, and you go because you don't want to be bored for three hours... Because Lord knows that Mormon meetings are so much more interesting than anything one could find to do outside its doors.

I would recommend that you put your son ahead of the Mormon church, and stay home so you don't force him to do something he clearly dislikes.