An Interesting Encounter With A Young Lady.

[_marg]

Your passenger's and Storm's ancecdotal stories don't gall me in the least. They aren't believable, no big deal about that.

I understand. Calling someone a "liar" is "no big deal". That's also indirectly aimed at me, your "gullible one". You have made a "big deal" about it. And you still have no idea how you're insulting my intelligence.

There you go again, not allowing that others have a different opinion than you without it being a major insult to you. Your entire intelligence does not rest solely on your decision making on this one event. Isn't it possible you are wrong. I thought you were an open minded individual, or so you've told me in this thread.

Ray you've added virtually nothing of substance in this thread to the issue of NDE's.

Put more accurately, you've read nothing substantial, because you hardly ever read anything at length. You are the expert on everything who's read nothing.

I've not claimed to be an expert on anything let alone claimed to be an expert on this NDE issue. But you've made it known you've been studying this I believe since the 70's.

A couple of anecdotal stories, some journal article which when I asked you to give me an executive summary or the most important point to take away from it, you refused. You haven't presented any argument and basically all you've done is attack those who are critical of the truth claims of Storm and the passenger you picked up.

A "couple of anecdotal stories", among the thousands I've gathered in the last 30 years. But since they can't be laboratory tested, they're useless to you, marg. Or should that be "lavatory tested"? When your husband proposed to you, did you ask for a scientific analysis? I know that sounds cheap, but this is, in reality, how you approach these things, marg.

Oi Vay, Ray. Did I ask my husband for a scientific analysis? All this because I don't think your passenger was truthful, nor Storm?

Let's see the way my husband proposed. Well I played hookey from school ( I was 19 years) in order to meet him in a nearby pub for an afternoon drink and get together, not having seen him for some time. He was attending university nearby. I was dating another fellow who also was going to that university near by, and I had been for about a year. Previously before that fellow I had dated my now hubby off and on since I was 16. So we were sitting in the pub, and I mentioned the other fellow had asked me to marry him to which my now husband said "I'll marry you". Not exactly a well thought out proposal. And that was that. To this day, he says I conned him into it, that it was all a plan. In retrospect I lucked out in many ways, in some ways I made a mistake. We both were lucky, things have turned out relatively well, in many ways. But it had nothing to do with thinking things through well, we did luck out.

Quite simply you are using this woman's short apparently proselytizing story, to spread your beliefs.

When do I report to the Gestapo? Will I be executed? Or can I make a plea of "gullible insanity"?

The problem with your story Ray, is the conclusion you draw from what she said, which is that her Bible belief and going to church has made her a better person. Previously to that she was atheist but now she's not, she's not like those other girls you pick up in your cab who are drunk.

Who is to say Ray that many of the other girls you pick up who are drunk aren't religious? Do you know their stories. Do you even know enough about this one you picked up to assume much about her?

Using her as if she is representative of someone with good moral values because she was sober when you picked her up. You have no idea what her moral values are just because she happened to be sober when you picked her up. You've presented the story as a cause and effect. This woman turned to God and church and now is a sober, drugless, morally ideal individual. Sheesh.

So if I picked up a woman with profanity pouring out of her mouth, spewing all inside the cab, not paying the fare, I'm unjustified in making any comparison with a decent young woman who tells me about her spiritual experiences, pays the fare, and mentions the word "God" during the conversation? You have some "interesting" priorities, marg. And the term "by their fruits" means nothing to you. Oh hell, I just used a Bible quote. My apology.

So what's your analogy tell us Ray, religious people are good because of their religion, and non religious are bad. They are the drunks you pick up?

Her story isn't offensive, nor Storm's. However you appear to be unable to accept particular criticisms of them without resorting to personal attacks.

And calling the young lady a "liar", "dishonest", "juvenile", and an Evangelistic purveyor of, ugggh, Christianity, isn't an attack? I presented an honest picture of the woman, as I saw it, but I'm amazed to learn that I'm the victim of a "con". No need to think for myself, marg and AS8 can do that well enough for me. My brain is obviously "on leave". Marg and AS8 will think for me.

RAy whether you like it or not, based on your story, it does seem that the women was proselytizing. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But certainly it does appear she used techniques as outlined by AS8.

What the hell is there then? Has anything meaningful, of scientific substance come out of any studies?

Well, marg, if you took the time to read them, you'll actually see. But I'll give you a lead. Nothing concrete, and no "consensus of agreement" has emerged because of the complex nature of near death studies. I think that in 20 years we will have something approaching "final". Technology is being developed to determine this, and practical approaches will eventually supersede more theoretical ones. But that doesn't mean that current theoretical approaches have no value. They are based on numerous analyses of anecdotal accounts, and collating data from other related studies.

So there is nothing..and yet you expect me to waste my time reading this stuff.

As I said previously you've offered no substance in this thread on an issue you take an interest in and wish to promote. Don't pass the buck onto me.

And as I said previously, your reading isn't of much substance.

I've never claimed to have taken an interest in NDE or read up on it.

I don't see anything of substance in the above.

After skimming an article, what do you expect to see? The stars?

Something of sustance on the issue.

Skimming does not mean one has made up their mind.

So you're trying to tell me you haven't made up your mind about any of this? It's all in your "examine more" basket?

You've given me no reason why I should spend time on this, in fact if anything the opposite. You've spent 20 years have you?

You still haven't listed how many books and scientific articles you've read on NDEs.

Here's my educated guess: None.

Ray I don't claim to have read any

[_antishock8]

Ironically, in trying to help people see that dogma isn't important in religious experience, I've encountered an even more stringent dogma from you and AS8.

Can you explain to me how my not accepting her story as truthful is a "dogma"?

I'm just saying her story is a typical Christian conversion story, and yes that it's an anecdotal fabrication due to its familiar story arc and metaphysical characteristics.

I'm also saying that it appears you're evangelizing by sharing this "amazing" conversion story.

[_Sethbag]

This is a typical Christian tactic. It's the I-was-an-atheist-in-jail-would-have-died-from-drugs-hated-Christians-worst-person-ever-until-this-spectacular-come-to-Jesus-moment conversion story. They all have little twists and variations to their stories depending on their target audience, but you get the picture.

So you're discounting her story, essentially calling her a liar, why? Are you also calling Lamanite a liar, because he has a similiar story?

Why are you unable to allow people their own interpretation of their own experiences?

People are free to interpret their experiences the way they wish. That doesn't, however, mean that their interpretations are correct, or that they accurately reflect reality. We all get to have our own opinions, but we don't get to have our own reality.

My daughter's friend's dad is a pastor in some Christian church, and we have spoken on a couple of different occasions. He gave me the I-used-to-be-an-atheist story, and it may well be true that he didn't in fact used to believe in God when he was in college, as he claimed. That said, it's clear from talking with him that he hasn't got the faintest clue about science and the world as it actually is. God belief may well have come in and replaced the void of belief in his life, but it never displaced a scientifically informed worldview, because he hasn't got one, and I have seen no evidence that he ever did.

As to the girl Ray A spoke with, well good for her, I suppose. I don't trust her interpretation of her emotional and/or mental problems, but if she's happier believing as she does, then that's about all we can hope for. As for the reasons I don't trust her interpretation, I have no not seen nor heard any evidence that Hell exists, and that this girl would be qualified to accurately judge her dreams as having been actual exposure to this real place. Especially not when nightmares and invented fears and bogeymen abound in the world. The null hypothesis would have to be that her nightmares are simply another example of these, and it would take some good evidence to convince me and others that they aren't.

[_Ray A]

As to the girl Ray A spoke with, well good for her, I suppose. I don't trust her interpretation of her emotional and/or mental problems, but if she's happier believing as she does, then that's about all we can hope for. As for the reasons I don't trust her interpretation, I have no not seen nor heard any evidence that Hell exists, and that this girl would be qualified to accurately judge her dreams as having been actual exposure to this real place. Especially not when nightmares and invented fears and bogeymen abound in the world. The null hypothesis would have to be that her nightmares are simply another example of these, and it would take some good evidence to convince me and others that they aren't.

I think these are sensible comments, and it's refreshing to see it. She didn't say that she went to hell, but had "hellish nightmares". I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything.

But I'll know better than to start threads like this again, lest I once again be accused of "evangelising". Some atheist sensitivities here run way too deep. It doesn't bother me if someone belives in one God, a thousand Gods, or no God. It's no skin off my nose.

And on that note, I think I'm finished with this thread. Enough has been said.
>
>
>

[_antishock8]

Hey Ray A,

Why don't you reach down between your legs, grab your nuts, and remind yourself you're a man. There's no reason to be so sensitive. We're just discussing the topic you brought to our attention.

Please answer my question. Thank you.

-AS8

[_Ray A]

Hey Ray A,

Why don't you reach down between your legs, grab your nuts, and remind yourself you're a man. There's no reason to be so sensitive. We're just discussing the topic you brought to our attention.

Please answer my question. Thank you.

-AS8

No thanks. You and marg can have it all your way. I have no interest in "convincing" anyone of anything.

[_antishock8]

Hey Ray A,

Why don't you reach down between your legs, grab your nuts, and remind yourself you're a man. There's no reason to be so sensitive. We're just discussing the topic you brought to our attention.

Please answer my question. Thank you.

-AS8

No thanks. You and marg can have it all your way. I have no interest in "convincing" anyone of anything.

Yeah, ok. Your sole intent was to share a faith promoting story because it was "interesting". Uh-huh.

[_marg]

But I'll know better than to start threads like this again, lest I once again be accused of "evangelising". Some atheist sensitivities here run way too deep. It doesn't bother me if someone belives in one God, a thousand Gods, or no God. It's no skin off my nose.

What appears to be bothering you is that myself and AS8 are disagreeing with your judgment of stories from a passenger and Storm which are both extraordinary to an extent. i.e. your passenger's hellish nightmares disappeared upon going to church and sleeping with the Bible, Storm had an NDE experience which wasn't a dream or hallucination. It appears as well you have a vested interest in promoting their stories, I guess because you believe them.

Anyone who rejects those stories have good reason to do so, but you are unwilling to accept that. No one is stopping you from accepting them, but you should grant others the right to reject them.

And this has nothing to do with being bothered by anyone having a God belief as you have attempted to make it. I'm not bothered by anyone who believes in a God. Even though you say you've spent 20 years studying NDE's you've given no good reason why anyone should accept they are anything more than processes going on in the brain in the very few people who claim to have experienced them while unconcious... compared to the many more under similar circumstances who claim no such NDE's.

What I personally found somewhat bothersome about your posts in this discussion was your attack on atheism. It's that familiar view so many religious people have, that somehow religious people are morally good by virtue of their religious beliefs. And that others who aren't must be because of lack of religious belief.

[_antishock8]

I can't understand why certain religious types think they have the claim to morality, unless that they themselves are deeply flawed individuals and require the construct of religious edicts to frame their lives and their actions. Perhaps they're projecting onto Atheists what they themselves would actually be doing if they didn't have a god-belief and the resultant carrot/stick paradigm.

[_Sethbag]

Well, I do regret that this thread has devolved into sniping in the way it has. I think that the topic of NDE and dream-related religious experiences is a valid one, and worthy of some comment from those who disbelieve them (as I also do).