The lost 116 pages

[_cinepro]

Perhaps someone can answer this question, which may be relevant to the discussion:

After the loss of the 116 pages, did Martin Harris ever give Joseph any more money or supplies, or act as scribe? Certainly, he was a witness, but was Lucy successful in stopping Martin from making further contributions?

[_cinepro]

But as a prophet, god was proven right, since the work progressed and succeeded. And what is in the D&C would imply that Lucy passed on the work to more professional people who would wait for the publication and then attempt to destroy the work.

Ummm...no, God was not "proven right". In order to be proven right, "wicked men" would have had to actually brought forth the altered pages, or in some other way confirmed their plan (offering the pages for sale, having them recovered with obvious alterations, etc.)

As it is, there has been no indication that these "wicked men" even existed. We only have the word of Joseph/God that that was the plan.

Even your hypothesis strains credulity. The idea that Lucy and others had formulated a long range, convoluted plan of dubious merit that was so threatening that it required Mormon to prepare a separate set of plates 1400 years earlier is really stretching it, especially when there is not a single shred of evidence other than Joseph's claim.

[_Scottie]

Even your hypothesis strains credulity. The idea that Lucy and others had formulated a long range, convoluted plan of dubious merit that was so threatening that it required Mormon to prepare a separate set of plates 1400 years earlier is really stretching it, especially when there is not a single shred of evidence other than Joseph's claim.

Bond brought up a great point on MAD.

These evil men would basically have to be so evil that when Joseph Smith re-translated the pages EXACTLY as the ones they had, they would have to denounce absolute proof that he was a prophet of God and go ahead with their evil plan anyways.

Also, these "evil men" were so hell bent on bringing Joseph Smith down that they couldn't even successfully keep a simple boycott together. How in the world were they going to pull off a forgery?

[_Jaybear]

Bond brought up a great point on MAD.

These evil men would basically have to be so evil that when Joseph Smith re-translated the pages EXACTLY as the ones they had, they would have to denounce absolute proof that he was a prophet of God and go ahead with their evil plan anyways.

That is what I find interesting about this story. It compels Mormons to believe that these wicked men, hatched their scheme BECAUSE THEY KNEW Smith was a prophet and the plates were genuine. (If they thought he was a fraud, they would not be wicked men.)

Imagine that, though never having seen the plates, or the translation, they knew Smith to be a prophet of God, and for that very reason plotted to destroy him.

How interesting to live in world where Satan literally exists and has an army of minions whose task is to undermine the Lord's one true church and its prophet.

This story feeds into the strange twist in the Mormon persecution complex, that the persecution they face is proof that Mormonism is true. After all, why else would anyone oppose the Lord's church and prophets.

[_why me]

Ummm...no, God was not "proven right". In order to be proven right, "wicked men" would have had to actually brought forth the altered pages, or in some other way confirmed their plan (offering the pages for sale, having them recovered with obvious alterations, etc.)

As it is, there has been no indication that these "wicked men" even existed. We only have the word of Joseph/God that that was the plan.

Even your hypothesis strains credulity. The idea that Lucy and others had formulated a long range, convoluted plan of dubious merit that was so threatening that it required Mormon to prepare a separate set of plates 1400 years earlier is really stretching it, especially when there is not a single shred of evidence other than Joseph's claim.

But you see, here is my problem: Martin was still around when D&C 10 was proclaimed. Now good ol' martin must have known the story about what happened to those pages. And certainly when Martin read that revelation it must have rung true to him. Who is to say that lucy did not hand those pages over to antimormons? Unfortunately, no one alive today was present.

[_why me]

Bond brought up a great point on MAD.

These evil men would basically have to be so evil that when Joseph Smith re-translated the pages EXACTLY as the ones they had, they would have to denounce absolute proof that he was a prophet of God and go ahead with their evil plan anyways.

That is what I find interesting about this story. It compels Mormons to believe that these wicked men, hatched their scheme BECAUSE THEY KNEW Smith was a prophet and the plates were genuine. (If they thought he was a fraud, they would not be wicked men.)

Imagine that, though never having seen the plates, or the translation, they knew Smith to be a prophet of God, and for that very reason plotted to destroy him.

How interesting to live in world where Satan literally exists and has an army of minions whose task is to undermine the Lord's one true church and its prophet.

This story feeds into the strange twist in the Mormon persecution complex, that the persecution they face is proof that Mormonism is true. After all, why else would anyone oppose the Lord's church and prophets.

Not quite. If I believed that someone was a fraudster and I had a way to expose the fraud, I would do so. I think that we can see this with Bernie Madoff. If I knew that he was a fraud, I would do what was in my power to expose what I believed to be a fraud.

Thus, the wicked men actually believed that they were doing humanity a fine service.

[_AlmaBound]

Not quite. If I believed that someone was a fraudster and I had a way to expose the fraud, I would do so. I think that we can see this with Bernie Madoff. If I knew that he was a fraud, I would do what was in my power to expose what I believed to be a fraud.

What if he had something you wanted and promised it to you if you didn't expose him? Or worse, what if he knew something about you that you didn't want exposed, something that you'd take to your deathbed?

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

[_Scottie]

Not quite. If I believed that someone was a fraudster and I had a way to expose the fraud, I would do so. I think that we can see this with Bernie Madoff. If I knew that he was a fraud, I would do what was in my power to expose what I believed to be a fraud.

Thus, the wicked men actually believed that they were doing humanity a fine service.

But that's the point. These wicked men believed that Joseph Smith could not re-create the pages. According to D&C 10, he COULD have re-created the pages through the power of God. But God forbade it.

What if God had said to re-create them? Jospeh makes an EXACT duplicate of what the evil men had. These evil men would have no reason to now believe anything except that Joseph was telling the truth and these pages are from the mouth of God. That Joseph really WAS a prophet. Yet, they would STILL change the pages and expose him?? Why?? Why wouldn't they convert right away? These must be some seriously "evil men".

Another question I have is why is it only the 116 pages that needed to be changed? If these evil men were going to commit forgery on the 116 pages, why not commit forgery on the published Book of Mormon? We know pages were leaked during the printing. Why didn't they take some of these pages and forge a completely different story? Wouldn't that scheme work just as well as trying to forge the 116 pages?

[_cinepro]

Martin was still around when D&C 10 was proclaimed. Now good ol' martin must have known the story about what happened to those pages. And certainly when Martin read that revelation it must have rung true to him. Who is to say that lucy did not hand those pages over to antimormons? Unfortunately, no one alive today was present.

Not necessarily. The way the story is told, Martin had no idea what the heck happened to the pages. Joseph could have told him anything (a goat ate them, Lucy burned them, an Angel took them back from heaven because Martin had shown them to people he shouldn't have, etc.)

The "altered pages" plan may have been true, or it may have been a theory that Joseph came up with to explain certain things.

[Guest]

Martin was still around when D&C 10 was proclaimed. Now good ol' martin must have known the story about what happened to those pages. And certainly when Martin read that revelation it must have rung true to him. Who is to say that lucy did not hand those pages over to antimormons? Unfortunately, no one alive today was present.

Not necessarily. The way the story is told, Martin had no idea what the heck happened to the pages. Joseph could have told him anything (a goat ate them, Lucy burned them, an Angel took them back from heaven because Martin had shown them to people he shouldn't have, etc.)

The "altered pages" plan may have been true, or it may have been a theory that Joseph came up with to explain certain things.

I am assuming that Lucy stole those pages. At least that seems to be the common assumption. I am sure that Martin would inform Lucy about this revelation of 'evil men'. If he did, Lucy could have produced the pages and claimed: Look Martin, I see no evil men but I do know that I had them. Joe is a false prophet! By giving this revelation, Joseph Smith took a great risk if he were a fraudster.

Also, it is rather sad that these pages have been lost. To have these pages now would be a great find. And much would be learned. And to have those pages suddenly turn uin 1841, would have put a crank in Joseph Smith's plans, if he were a fraudster. But, no pages so far.