Witnesses to fraud

[_Jason Bourne]

I know you are serious Jason..but really.

Let me ask you some questions.

Why would Oliver Cowdery need to go into the woods to view plates...if he was one of the scribes and plates were not even needed, not only were they not needed and used but he was the scribe for a good proportion of it..something like over 80% of it I believe?

Were the plates observed with natural eyes as opposed to spiritual eyes by all witnesses. If not which ones saw with spiritual eyes, which ones with natural.

Of all the witness which ones saw with natural eye and were able to examine the plates, turning the pages etc?

Did the witnesses hear the voice of God with natural hearing or with spiritual hearing?

If the hearing the voice of god per Book of Mormon statementm was with natural hearing...then why didn't Harris hear at the same time as Cowdery and D. Whitmer?

So will start with those.

It is my understanding that Harris was the only one who, when challenged, back peddled and took the position that what he say and heard were not with his natural eyes or ears but rather a spiritual phenomenon.

Here is their written testimony as found in the Book of Mormon:

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Further Cowdrey gives witness to actual and literal visitations from John the Baptist and Peter James and John. Here are some other comments he made:

Oliver Cowdery, Witness to the Book of Mormon

I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred on us, or restored, the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood, and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while the earth stands. I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchizedek Priesthood was conferred by the holy angel from on high. This Priesthood, we then conferred on each other by the will and commandment of God.

History of the Church, 1:41, footnote.

The assurance that we were in the presence of an angel; the certainty that we heard the voice of Jesus, and the truth unsullied as it flowed from a pure personage, dictated by the will of God, is to me, past description, and I shall ever look upon this expression of the Savior's goodness with wonder and thanksgiving.

History of the Church, 1:43, footnote.

[_Joey]

Exactly Joey...while I'm sure Whyme is serious about believing the witness statements, they are so obviously unreliable, not believable, as to not merit being taken serious for discussion purposes.

Can you tell us specifically what statements from David Whitmer, let's start with him, about his witness of the Book of Mormon, the angel and the plates that you find so obviously unreliable and not believable? Or take Oliver Cowdrey if you prefer.

Thanks

This is what is so absurd about the whole "witnesses" argument that Peterson and the rest of the Provo Pundits use to obsfucate the real issue: HISTORICAL EVIDENCE!!!

Who cares about the supposed witnesses and/or what they may have seen???? It is absolutely not relevant to anything dealing with the historicity of people, places and cultures claimed in the Book of Mormon!!! Peterson must truely believe that members of his church are the most ignorant and naïve people on earth to use such accounts as evidence.

If we had written accounts of reliable witnesses seeing cash in the hands of Billy The Kid with all witnesses' accounts claiming he (Blly) said it was loot robbed from a bank in Moriarity, N.M., would we give the witnesses, or the accounts any credibility if there was absolutely no evidence that the bank or town ever existed?

Again, who cares what the witnesses saw? As they say: "It's only relevant in Provo folks, only in Provo"!!!

[_Uncle Dale]

...

Here is their written testimony as found in the Book of Mormon:

Please provide a chronology describing when, where and in what sequence
the events testified to occurred -- also documentation on who wrote the
statement; when it was written; who signed the statement and where it
can be examined today.

UD

[_why me]

I know you are serious Jason..but really.

Let me ask you some questions.



Were the plates observed with natural eyes as opposed to spiritual eyes by all witnesses. If not which ones saw with spiritual eyes, which ones with natural.

Of all the witness which ones saw with natural eye and were able to examine the plates, turning the pages etc?

Did the witnesses hear the voice of God with natural hearing or with spiritual hearing?

If the hearing the voice of god per Book of Mormon statementm was with natural hearing...then why didn't Harris hear at the same time as Cowdery and D. Whitmer?

So will start with those.

Hello Marg!

Here is your answer:

http://en.fairmormon.org/%22Eye_of_Fait ... tin_Harris

Contemporary witnesses
Joseph Smith was an eyewitness to what Martin Harris said at the exact moment that the manifestation took place. He reported that Martin's words were: "Tis enough; mine eyes have beheld".[1] Another eyewitness, named Alma Jensen, saw Martin Harris point to his physical eyes while testifying that he had seen both the angel and the plates.[2] One of the other Three Witnesses (David Whitmer) explained how the physical and spiritual worked together during this experience. He said, "Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us as it is at any time."[3] And to leave absolutely no doubt about the nature of the manifestation Whitmer explained, "I was not under any hallucination . . . . I saw with these eyes."[4]

Choice of phrase
The only question that remains, then, is why Martin Harris used the particular phraseology that he did in describing his experience. Perhaps the answer lies in another passage found in the book of Eth. 12:19 (created by June 1829). Here it is noted that those people who have "exceedingly strong" faith can see things "within the veil." But even though they see things in the spiritual realm "with their eyes" it is described as beholding things with "an eye of faith."

Another possibility can be seen in the text of Mos. 1:11 (created in June 1830). It reads:

"But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face."
This dovetails nicely with the description of David Whitmer who "explained that he saw the plates, and with his natural eyes, but he had to be prepared for it—that he and the other witnesses were overshadowed by the power of God."[5]

Conclusion
When Martin Harris said that he had seen the angel and the plates with his "spiritual eyes" or with an "eye of faith" he may have simply been employing some scriptural language that he was familiar with. Such statements do not mean that the angel and the plates were imaginary, hallucinatory, or just an inner mental image. But rather they were seen by physical eyes that had been enhanced by the power of God to view more objects than a mortal could normally see (cf. D&C 76:12; D&C 67:10-13).

Critics who insist otherwise do not provide their readers with all of Martin's statements, distorting the historical record.

[_why me]

I'm also unimpressed by airy (but extraordinarily selective and agenda-driven) a priori dismissals of witness testimony.

Classic. Absofuckinlutely classic.

Mormons are irony impaired.

Your post should be in the telestial forum because of phraseology. Lets keep this forum Terrestial.

[_why me]

...

Here is their written testimony as found in the Book of Mormon:

Please provide a chronology describing when, where and in what sequence
the events testified to occurred -- also documentation on who wrote the
statement; when it was written; who signed the statement and where it
can be examined today.

UD

Aren't you the guy who likes deathbed testimony? Try this on for size:

Martin Harris bore his testimony once again on his deathbed. Martin’s highly practical neighbor, George Godfrey, deliberately waited for a semiconscious moment to suggest that Martin’s testimony was possibly based on deception.14 Godfrey recorded the vigorous response:
A few hours before his death and when he was so weak and enfeebled that he was unable to recognize me or anyone, and knew not to whom he was speaking, I asked him if he did not feel that there was an element at least, of fraudulence and deception in the things that were written and told of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and he replied as he had always done so many, many times in my hearing the same spirit he always manifested when enjoying health and vigor and said: ‘The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true.”15

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/B ... sses_3.pdf

Pomeroy Tucker, who knew Harris but didn’t believe in the Book of Mormon, once noted:
How to reconcile the act of Harris in signing his name to such a statement [his Book of Mormon testimony], in view of the character of honesty which had always been conceded to him, could never easily be explained.9
During the time when Harris was separated from the LDS Church, he sought for the joy he once knew in his early Mormon years by seeking it in other Christian faiths. His quest for such gospel joy lead him along several paths all (except for a brief encounter with Shakerism) affiliated with some Mormon group until at last he returned to Mormonism.10 Despite the claim of the critics that his spiritual wandering showed signs of religious instability, it showed instead that once he left Mormonism he was unable to find the gospel joy he once felt but earnestly sought it until he returned to where he had started.

As I stated many times, the witnesses could have made some dough by coming clean with the fraud. But none ever came clean. Why? because they saw what they saw.

[_marg]

Jason you didn't go through my questions and answer them.

Let's deal with what you did say, for now.

It is my understanding that Harris was the only one who, when challenged, back peddled and took the position that what he say and heard were not with his natural eyes or ears but rather a spiritual phenomenon.

Actually I don't think that's the case, but let's assume it is. So we have 3 witnesses signing a pre-prepared statement which give the impression they shared the exact same experience, but then we find out later that their experiences were not the same..didn't even allegedly occur at the same time. That calls into question how reliable the signed Book of Mormon statement is.

Now if we have 2 witnesses (based upon your argument) saying they saw with (natural) eyes. That would mean there was a physical presence of plates...why would Harris have had difficulty seeing physical plates? Why would anyone make it difficult for harris to see the plates..let alone some superpower, supernatural entity? According to other witnesses they felt the plates under cloth, according to at least one, they physically turned a leaf. Why aren't their stories of their experiences consistent with one another? Why would any witness need to qualify that a supernatural element was involved when it came to the plates, since the claim is they actually existed.

As Joey pointed out, the plates are really not important in proving anything about the truth claims related to the Book of Mormon. Why such inconsistency with some physical plates, which weren't even used for the majority of the time by scribes?

Here is their written testimony as found in the Book of Mormon:

snip....

It's not their statements Jason, it was prepared for them and they signed. Why are you being less than forthright with me?

Further Cowdrey gives witness to actual and literal visitations from John the Baptist and Peter James and John. Here are some other comments he made:

Well Cowdery is not a very objective witness..since he was the main scribe, but why are you going off on a tangent and ignoring my questions?

Oliver Cowdery, Witness to the Book of Mormon

I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred on us, or restored, the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood, and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while the earth stands. I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchizedek Priesthood was conferred by the holy angel from on high. This Priesthood, we then conferred on each other by the will and commandment of God.

History of the Church, 1:41, footnote.

And you believe this stuff Jason...why? Have you ever seen an angel? What in the above sounds convincing to you?

The assurance that we were in the presence of an angel; the certainty that we heard the voice of Jesus, and the truth unsullied as it flowed from a pure personage, dictated by the will of God, is to me, past description, and I shall ever look upon this expression of the Savior's goodness with wonder and thanksgiving.

History of the Church, 1:43, footnote.

[/quote]

How would Cowdery know what the voice of Jesus sounds like..assuming for argument sake he even heard a voice? And if he couldn't possibly know what the voice of Jesus sounds like, why does he claim to know?

And what about hearing the voice of God..was that spiritual or physical? If God can physically communicate with sound, why not to all witnesses, why not witnesses not related familially as all of them were except harris. Why doesn't God do that now...come to speak on behalf of the Book of Mormon? What's the big deal? If it was only spiritual hearing, then how reliable is that? How reliable is it that Cowdery the main scribe, Harris a scribe and investor and Whitmer a scribe and involved..are all not in an objective relationship to the whole affair?

[_Jason Bourne]

marg

I am pressed for time right now. I will try to get back to this tomorrow and discuss this more thoroughly with you.

Thanks

[_why me]

Here is their written testimony as found in the Book of Mormon:

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

It's not their statements Jason, it was prepared for them and they signed them. Why are you being less than forthright with me?

And your point is???? It was a group effort. Nothing out of the ordinary in signing a group statement. The point: they signed a statement.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
The point: they signed a statement.

Did you Mormons place enough value upon the worth of that document to preserve it?

UD