Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

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_Runtu
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _Runtu »

zeezrom wrote:EA and Stem,

Why am I having such a difficult time with your point? I'm looking at my past life and the lives of those around me and just can't see it. Religion is so vastly important to believers that I see it as impossible to be apathetic about it. What stopped me from looking at the hairy details? First, I thought I was already being thorough in my research! I thought I was systematically studying the issues. I read the Book of Mormon every day, participated in discussions during SS and EQ, and took seminary and institute classes. I thought this is the right way to learn everything.

I considered critical publications to be filthy and vile. It had nothing to do with apathy. I cared about my belief (testimony). It was my baby. I took care of it, dug about it, and nurtured it. I was wary of anything critical for it is filled with Satan's breath and vomit. This is what I was taught, EA. I was taught to fear the critical side.

Do you think I suddenly awoke from a fog of apathy in order to change my beliefs?


My two cents: EA is right that we tend to be passionate but lazy when it comes to easy ideological positions. We adopt some principle or belief, but we rely on other people to do the heavy lifting. In the church, however, there is, as you say, a "right way" to learn about the church and that is from officially provided and sanctioned sources. Outside materials tend to be shunned and demonized.

So, yes, we are perfectly willing to study thoroughly that which has been provided for us, especially because there's such a large amount of material we are expected to know (scriptures, manuals, conference talks, handbooks, church magazines, etc.). And we are conditioned to stay away from outside sources. I remember how scared I was when I came across No Man Knows My History when I was a teenager. I didn't read it until many years later, when I had already lost my belief.

What usually happens is that people stumble across an outside source and look at it out of curiosity. That triggers a desire to learn more, and often the apologists, rather than providing a good answer, simply confirm that the problematic is true. So, it's not laziness, just a step outside of our comfort zone that is often the catalyst.
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_beastie
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _beastie »

Perhaps it's not apathy, per se, but rather a form of "don't ask, don't tell." Most LDS simply do not want to hear about any of these things.

This isn't an indictment of LDS in particular - this is true of most believers of any religion.
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_schreech
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _schreech »

Droopy wrote:Yes, uh...I find it ironic that you would claim for Mr. Graham characteristics so obviously lacking from his limited behavioral repertoire.


Yea, definitely a man-crush...its cute that you spend this much time thinking about KG....
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
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_Themis
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _Themis »

beastie wrote:Perhaps it's not apathy, per se, but rather a form of "don't ask, don't tell." Most LDS simply do not want to hear about any of these things.

This isn't an indictment of LDS in particular - this is true of most believers of any religion.


I think apathy and laziness may not be the best descriptions of most members. I agree with you and would add that most just are not interested and are busy with so many things.
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_daheshism
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _daheshism »

Kevin is simply being honest. Church leaders are "insane" in that they think they can LIE every day in Jesus' name, and then become Gods and have sex with their own spirit-daughters. If that is not "insanity" I don't know what is!

The new Joseph Smith movie is one part fact and five parts fiction. It leaves out all the bad stuff and invents some "good" stuff. It is pure MYTH MAKERS.


Droopy wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xVw6PsSinI

Check out the poor innocent, falsely accused prophet being murdered for absolutely no apparent reason other than the fact that he, like Jesus, was too perfect for this miserable world.

I couldn't stop laughing throughout this movie. Joseph Smith holding back the door with his bare hands as the mob shot bullets from every direction. Black folks walking "900 miles" to see Joseph (wtf?) and then have the honor of him washing their blistering feet (right!!). Two bounty hunters taking Joseph to Missouri, only to be stopped by Mormon militia and then invited by Joseph to be their "guest of honor" at dinner that same night. Every clip had Joseph giving pearls of wisdom to everyone, including lazy husbands who didn't want to do any chores. Joseph Smith in this movie was better than Jesus ever was in the Bible.

The most amazing thing about this is that Mormons are so naïve and have already started praising this as an accurate portrayal of the historical Joseph. They'll hear the hymns constantly playing in the background, and watch the professional actors approach Joseph with sincere eyes as if he were Jesus on the Mount.

Funny how they decided to skip over the Nauvoo Expositor, any mention of polygamy, or the gun Joseph Smith fired back at his attackers, etc...



Proof positive that Red Kevin Graham is not only insane, but willfully so.

Some people are insane, and some people are "unsane." Agency can be used, perversely, in this way.

Yes...perversely.
_Sethbag
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _Sethbag »

EAllusion wrote:I agree with Stem Zee. I think most people just go with the flow without thinking about it too much.

I think many Mormons remain ignorant of the true history of Joseph Smith due to apathy, as Stemelbow suggests. Once, however, a member becomes exposed to some of this history, I think many Mormons deliberately cease to look at it, and push it away and out of their minds, more for the reasons Zeezrom stated, than due to a resurgent apathy heading once-piqued curiosity off at the pass.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _Kevin Graham »

EAllusion wrote:I agree with Stem Zee. I think most people just go with the flow without thinking about it too much.


You and Stem are right about this, but my comment on naïvété was in reference to the numerous LDS comments below the video. There are a few howlers in that list.

Those who are most apathetic are generally those who, in my opinion, don't really put a lot of stock into these silly Church videos in the first place.
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

zeezrom wrote:EA and Stem,

Do you really think Mormons are to lazy to learn the full history? Why? Are they lazy people? Think about it. Mormons spend many hours every week on religion. They discuss it for 3 hours on Sunday, 30 minutes every day, 1 hour every Monday night, and more time depending on the calling.

It is not apathy. It is fear. There might be some (positive) desire to stick around as well.

Z?

Mormons sitting in a church for three hours has little to do with them studying their religion.

C'mon man, church is a damned snooze fest for most, and if you aren't dozing off its because you are herding your dirty faced Mormon spawn.

Believe me I know.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _Kevin Graham »

He doesn't have a position, at least, not in a critical or logical sense


My position is clear. The Church produced this video while engaging in deceptive and misleading editing of actual history. It carefully chiseled away anything that stood a chance of putting Joseph Smith in a negative light.

With all this apologetic 'riff raff' about how Mormon prophets are fallible people who make mistakes just like anyone else, this video strongly suggests Mormons don't really believe that at all. Virtually every phrase that fell from his lips was dripping with enlightening wisdom and inspiration. Everything he did in this movie depicted a person whose actions towards others revealed nothing but unbridled forgiveness and unsurpassed charity. The only indication that he was actually a mere mortal being comes when Joseph admits he isn't perfect, which of course says more about his humility than his imperfection. All of this was enough to make Jesus Christ himself blush.

And I got a kick out of the way the Church's marketing dept got the producer to include all sorts of clips involving black folks, especially that scene where a small group of black people were drawn to Joseph Smith after "walking 900 miles." Presumably because they either felt the spirit or because they heard Joseph Smith was such a progressive Civil Rights advocate for the black community. The video never really says, but leaves this to your imagination.

The scene where Joseph Smith was washing the feet of black folks in a time of slavery, was obviously an intentional comparison of Jesus Christ washing the feet of his servants.

Shameless! And Mormons can never complain when Christians criticize them for comparing him to Jesus.

You also see him giving his wife an expensive necklace because he was obviously such a wonderful example that all husbands need to follow, but there were no signs of any of his other wives, even though the video covered the period of his polygamous life. The narrator refers to the warrant for his arrest being the result of "again falsely accused." Yes of course, the innocent "lamb to the slaughter," how could we forget. That's what the Church has always told us. The Joseph Smith in this video bears very little resemblance to the historic figure, and for this reason the Church is guilty of deception for its own corporate purposes.

The Church has become the religious equivalent of FOX News. Just yesterday FOX News edited out portions of an interview with John Stewart, because he mopped the floors with their most respected journalist Chris Wallace.

His entire presence on this board and other boards is nothing more than his psychological defense mechanisms parading upon the public stage in a daily cathartic territorial display, like a mountain gorilla slapping its chest and pounding the ground.


LOL! Standard Droopy. You're at your rawest form when faced with clear irrefutable facts, whether political or religious.

Take a bow.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Proof the Church Misleads and Deceives about History

Post by _Kevin Graham »

And remember, the movie opens with this statement:

"The historical events represented in this story are true and occurred on the American frontier from 1805 to 1845."

So go ahead apologists, let's see how you justify this.

I'm watching a scene at 9 minutes in. The young Joseph Smith dealing with his recent "vision" experience and wondering how to go about dealing with this new knowledge. This reminds me of a scene from Smallville, when the young Clark Kent was being advised by his father to keep his powers a secret because the world simply isn't ready for him yet.

LOL!

This movie is pretty hilarious when you think about it.
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