Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_thews]

Let me make this very simple for you. Joseph Smith said he was "translating" the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith wrote the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar to document his "translation" process. You acknowledge Joseph Smith could not "translate" Egyptian. Are you calling Joseph Smith a liar?

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. That is not how Joseph Smith translated.

If your argument is that Joseph Smith's ability to translate was "by the gift and power of God" and he used that gift to translate the supposed golden plates and Egyptian papyri, then what language that either contained is what should have been written down. If we went extinct and a million years from now aliens found a copy of Huckleberry Finn and translated it, what they should get when they're done is a translation of the language it was written in and not some different words to create the Bible.

Joseph Smith "translated" by the gift and power of God. His separate speculations about the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar is unrelated to the Book of Abraham.

Do you realize how absurd your logic is in a failed attempt to appease your cognitive dissonance? Why did Joseph Smith pay $2400 which was a ton of money back then, if he didn't even need the papyri? You continue to fail to acknowledge what Joseph Smith said, and what he actually said is that he translated the papyri. What part of this don't you understand?

http://mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm

"... with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commence the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. - a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 236). p

A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. - The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."

Someone is right... either you or Joseph Smith. Are you calling Joseph Smith a liar? If no, how do you rationalize discounting what he said as untrue?

[_Tobin]

As far as I can tell, that should make you the only member. I've heard many burning bosom stories, but yours is the only one that has a visitation from God. The church will definitely have to revise it's membership numbers.

I was redeemed like Saul and Alma, so I don't mind the company. Now, I don't pretend to have the ability of either of those two - but I am grateful that God saw fit to intervene in my life.

[_Tobin]

...

You can believe whatever you want thews. The fact is Joseph Smith did not know Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I've explained it as simply as I can to you. From there, you'll have to make up your own mind.

[_Rufus]

As far as I can tell, that should make you the only member. I've heard many burning bosom stories, but yours is the only one that has a visitation from God. The church will definitely have to revise it's membership numbers.

I was redeemed like Saul and Alma, so I don't mind the company. Now, I don't pretend to have the ability of either of those two - but I am grateful that God saw fit to intervene in my life.

American Fork mental insitution? Maybe we should start directing a portion of the tithe to that insitution for your three squares and a cot.

[_Quasimodo]

As far as I can tell, that should make you the only member. I've heard many burning bosom stories, but yours is the only one that has a visitation from God. The church will definitely have to revise it's membership numbers.

I was redeemed like Saul and Alma, so I don't mind the company. Now, I don't pretend to have the ability of either of those two - but I am grateful that God saw fit to intervene in my life.

Wow, down from 14,000,000 to 3. Since Saul and Alma are unavailable right now, it's going to put a heavy tithing burden on you. Not to mention all those callings you are going to have to cover.

[_Tobin]

Wow, down from 14,000,000 to 3. Since Saul and Alma are unavailable right now, it's going to put a heavy tithing burden on you. Not to mention all those callings you are going to have to cover.

And since I give my tithing to charity, I guess the Church Corporation will have to disband. I'm not sorry to see it go.

[_stemelbow]

On this basis Paul H Dunn did absolutely nothing wrong and those people who think he did are 'missing the boat'.

Nothing in what i said relates to what you said, from what I can see. Care to clarify?

[_son of Ishmael]

I agree with Tobin that the whole story told by Joseph Smith of what he called the 'translation' of the Book of Abraham from the papyri makes no sense at all, and is quite implausible.

On that basis, and after reading the text, it seems overwhelmingly likely that he simply made it all up. This for me is yet another example of the truth of Sethbag's wise dictum "Mormonism is not only not true, it's obviously not true."

I suppose Tobin's grounds for believing otherwise in the face of such circumstances might be that he asked his deity if the Book of Abraham was substantially a true revelation rather than a piece of fiction, and that deity say 'Yes'. Do I have that right?

Chap, yes, there are really only the two possibilities. I'll add that there is no good reason to believe the position that God revealed the story to Joseph Smith unless God reveals Mormonism is true to you. As I've mentioned to Kish, Quasi, and others, Mormonism is a revealed religion. Basically, if God doesn't show up and tell you it is true, the claims are preposterous and simply can not be believed.

“Basically, if God doesn't show up and tell you it is true, the claims are preposterous and simply can not be believed.”

Tobin, I agree 100% with your statement. Until God shows up and tells me different I am going to continue to believe that church’s claims are preposterous. If on the other hand I get a good Alma the Younger visitation I will spend the rest of my life preaching the good word.

But it has to be a real visitation. Not something I thought I saw after five drinks of Absinthe.

[_Shulem]

As far as I can tell, that should make you the only member. I've heard many burning bosom stories, but yours is the only one that has a visitation from God. The church will definitely have to revise it's membership numbers.

I was redeemed like Saul and Alma, so I don't mind the company. Now, I don't pretend to have the ability of either of those two - but I am grateful that God saw fit to intervene in my life.

Wow. Tobin saw a light and maybe even heard a voice. So what. People see lights and hear voices all the time. And those things aren't just in Mormonism. You are putting way too much in your so-called spiritual experience in effort to justify Joe Smith the false prophet. Your light and voice were false voices in your head. They are no more true than the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3. You imagined it.

Paul O

[_Drifting]

On this basis Paul H Dunn did absolutely nothing wrong and those people who think he did are 'missing the boat'.

Nothing in what i said relates to what you said, from what I can see. Care to clarify?

You said the origins of the stories in the book of Abraham were unimportant so long as people found spiritual upliftment from them (I think that's what you said.

Paul H Dunn made up stories which people found spiritually uplifting despite their origins.