Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

[_DoubtingThomas]

DT, one common complaint about religion is that it produces hypocrites. Why? Because people belong to a religion that they don't fully follow. Seeing a Christian speaking ill of the poor, for instance, screams hypocrisy.

One might ask, How can a Christian condemn the poor given what Jesus said about treating the poor?

It's because even though people call themselves a Baptist or a Catholic of a Mormon or whatever, what they really mean is they are their own version of that religion (just like everyone has their own version of their god - i. e personal god). Nobody lives their religion to the letter. It's not even really possible to do so, given religions' contradictory nature.

And this is yet one more reason I think religion is pointless, but people like their various fictions. You're going to live your life they way you want anyway. Why burden yourself with the religious crap? I digress...

Long story short: as long as you realize everyone lives their own version of the religion, you can easily make homosexuality compatible with Christianity. Hell, you can make prostitution compatible with Scientology, or gambling important to Methodists. Religious people are making it up as they go along anyway; they follow, discard, and write in what they want.

Fortunately for the business of religion, the churches get the credit, and therefore the cash. Quite the racket.

Very true.

[_canpakes]

Talking to you and Doubting Thomas one might conclude that religion has never motivated anyone to live a more moral life.

What is the root of that motivation, ajax?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Do you Doc, still believe in things like, "Thou shalt not steal." If so, why? Where do you get this moral knowledge?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

That predates the ten commandments by millennia. Where did they figure out it was damned infuriating when someone steals? Also, stealing is pretty relative, wouldn’t you say? Some people think paying taxes is government theft. A starving man might steal a fat man’s sammich. Eventually you’re going to develop your own set of ethics that account for nuance and context.

So. Where do I get my moral knowledge? I get it from culture, indoctrination, experience, law, philosophy, and introspection. I probably even get some from genetic history, too.

Where do you derive your moral knowledge from?

- Doc

[_Jersey Girl]

Here comes a bunch of 'stuff'. If it make sense to you, fine. If not, fine.

Do you Doc, still believe in things like, "Thou shalt not steal." If so, why? Where do you get this moral knowledge?

First, personally, I think that too many people read and interpret the Bible in a vacuum. How can that be useful when we fail to apply knowledge and experience in various disciplines...philosophy, science, etc.

Developing rules of government is part of our evolutionary development as human beings. If I recall correctly, it fits with social conflict theory. If it doesn't fit with conflict theory, it fits with another social theory because that is part of our survival as human beings. You took Psych and Soc, didn't you? You had to have taken those courses including stage models of human development.

Didn't you?

All of those developmental stage models that you presumably studied, fit together to round out full development of the human beings that we are. You should understand, if you paid attention, how moral reasoning develops over time in our life course.

That the Ten Commandments were delivered to Israel as their form of social and spiritual government doesn't mean that they INVENTED a rule against stealing (or were the only tribe to codify a rule against stealing) any more than our local/state/federal government laws mean that a remote primitive tribe in bf Egypt that has never heard of formal governments and has never picked up a book (instead transmitting the development of their history via orality) doesn't adhere to the same rules of Tribal management.

Stealing threatens the survival of the group.

Listen, if you take large groups of 3 and 4 year old children (and I conducted this evolutionary play experiment for 2 full years, possibly 3--I'd have to think about it--professionally including daily written and photographic documentation) and stay OUT of their play experiences they will develop their own games, assign positions within the group, and they will develop their own form of self-government by creating rules and roles for each person in the group.

Without anyone ever having so much as suggested a group game or the creation of rules in the group, or consequences for not following the rules.

I'm not talking about a group of young children playing red light/green light. I'm talking about a group of YC actually inventing and constructing their own play using whatever they find in the environment with whomever elects to be part of the group.

Israel codified their rule against stealing for the survival of the group.

We have codified rules against stealing for the survival of the group.

The remote tribe in bf Egypt has rules against stealing for the survival of the group.

Young children (through trial, error, innovation, and experience) create their own verbal rules for the survival of their group play.

And I am more than sure that all of the groups mentioned above have ways to justify breaking and/or revising those rules in specific situations if it means the preservation of the group.

Our military just delivered a brutal yet effective assault on a lead (now deceased) terrorist. Previously we got Bin Laden and Hussein and many thousand others of terrorist groups. This pattern repeats itself throughout history as we look back.

Isn't it against the 10 C's to kill? Then why did we kill these people?

In an effort to ensure the preservation of the group.

[_Jersey Girl]

So the whole 'how can you be a Christian if you do <stuff that I believe to be forbidden by a moral code I claim to be based on the Bible>' thing seems to be based on some pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what Christianity is about.

Okay, but Christianity is causing a lot of problems in the US. Would you disagree?

What problems do you think Christianity is causing in the US? Make a little list please so I can see where you are coming from.

[_ajax18]

Do you Doc, still believe in things like, "Thou shalt not steal." If so, why? Where do you get this moral knowledge?

Where can I find commandments like "Thou shall not be racist" Thou shall not have slaves" "Thou shall not have child brides" "Thou shall not rape" in the scriptures? Help me find the moral knowledge in the scriptures.

The liberal religion. But they"re under pressure to assimilate with Sharia o. The child bride and polygamy thing.

You won't find thpu shalt not "be racist," (whatever kooky nebulous meaning some SJW defies it as,) in the Bible.

Love thy neighbor? I'm sure liberals could still find racism in people who love their neighbor. There are no limits to what racism can mean only who is allowed to use the word.

Maybe your trouble with Christianity is Jesus's failure to make "Thou shalt not be racist as defined by your accuser, to be the first and only great commandment.

[_Jersey Girl]

Do you Doc, still believe in things like, "Thou shalt not steal." If so, why? Where do you get this moral knowledge?

Where can I find commandments like "Thou shall not be racist" Thou shall not have slaves" "Thou shall not have child brides" "Thou shall not rape" in the scriptures? Help me find the moral knowledge in the scriptures.

Would you like a list? I'm serious. I can list them.

[_Some Schmo]

Yeah, when you think in terms of human evolution and survival, I'm not sure how we could have gotten where we are without having an innate sense of right and wrong, in the context of how we treat each other. I can easily envision a time when more extreme forms of anti-social behavior in the young was quickly (violently) disposed of by the group. You don't cooperate, you don't survive long enough to mate. Cooperation has been bred into us. Promoting favorable relationships has been bred into us.

Writing down the basic rules that naturally emerge from favorable behaviors seems like a no-brainer, given also our story-telling nature. The problem is that once they're articulated on paper, limited by one's ability to articulate such a complex subject, people tend to grant the written word special status (especially if it's wrapped it in stories purported to be of divine origin), and forget that it was trying to capture the spirit of the rules at the time.

Morality is an evolving thing because we can't stop evolving. There is no objective morality - it's the sum of our conscious views on it. It's an endless discussion.

These days, we're feeling like not stealing from each other is moral in pretty much all circumstances. Not everyone agrees. That's morality. Hell, some people think grabbing a woman's pussy when you first meet her is a-ok. Opinions vary.

[_Jersey Girl]

Where can I find commandments like "Thou shall not be racist" Thou shall not have slaves" "Thou shall not have child brides" "Thou shall not rape" in the scriptures? Help me find the moral knowledge in the scriptures.

Would you like a list? I'm serious. I can list them.

Hey I cheated a little and did a search starting with what we think of as the Golden Rule. Here's a list from kingjamesbibleonline.org.

This should be a good start at meeting your request.


Matthew 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 - And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Matthew 7:1-5 - Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mark 12:31 - And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

1 John 4:20 - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Luke 6:32-42 - For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

Proverbs 28:6 - Better [is] the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than [he that is] perverse [in his] ways, though he [be] rich.

1 Peter 3:9 - Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Leviticus 19:18 - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

Matthew 25:31-46 - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Hebrews 13:2 - Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

James 4:11-12 - Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

[_Jersey Girl]

Yeah, when you think in terms of human evolution and survival, I'm not sure how we could have gotten where we are without having an innate sense of right and wrong, in the context of how we treat each other. I can easily envision a time when more extreme forms of anti-social behavior in the young was quickly (violently) disposed of by the group. You don't cooperate, you don't survive long enough to mate. Cooperation has been bred into us. Promoting favorable relationships has been bred into us.

Writing down the basic rules that naturally emerge from favorable behaviors seems like a no-brainer, given also our story-telling nature. The problem is that once they're articulated on paper, limited by one's ability to articulate such a complex subject, people tend to grant the written word special status (especially if it's wrapped it in stories purported to be of divine origin), and forget that it was trying to capture the spirit of the rules at the time.

Morality is an evolving thing because we can't stop evolving. There is no objective morality - it's the sum of our conscious views on it. It's an endless discussion.

These days, we're feeling like not stealing from each other is moral in pretty much all circumstances. Not everyone agrees. That's morality. Hell, some people think grabbing a woman's pussy when you first meet her is a-ok. Opinions vary.

Yes, I agree with almost everything you stated above. What I was trying to get across to ajax is that because Israel was presumably given a set of laws to live by (that align with many of our laws today), it doesn't mean they invented each law. It means they received and adopted that set of laws for themselves. They believe the law was given to them by God.

If you want to make the argument that laws against killing originated with Moses receiving the law, I can yank out that card myself and the house of cards will fall because you cannot yank out one law for your intended purpose while ignoring all the others. For example, having one God or idolatry isn't codified into our written law today.

That argument falls and fails easily.

Is it against the law to steal in I dunno...Pakistan? Is that because Pakistani's are primarily Christian folks? Or is it because over time, the laws developed to ensure the preservation and survival of the tribe?

The answer is survival.